Listening to Obama spew more healthcare BS as he launches his plan live

[DICKIEDOO]

What a tool. I love living in a socialist country where the Dictator jams a bull shit bill down our throats against our will.

[everyday3]

:yeathat:

[Phatmax]

We are so F*cked. People don't realize that once someone "gives" you something, they have the right to tell you how to use it. And being that your "health" is actually your LIFE, the .gov is going to be able to DICTATE how you live your life.

I wonder if riding a motorcycle will be deemed to risky by the government bean counters and we will be punished with higher rates.

[Ablev1]

Yeah because this is all new and has never been done before. I'm not advocating what he is doing, but please don't act like he is the first president to shove things down our throat.

[wbeck257]

But he said he wouldn't.
And talked shit when it was done before.

[Ablev1]

Kind of like the "read my lips, no new taxes" thing right?

[Phatmax]

Yeah because this is all new and has never been done before. I'm not advocating what he is doing, but please don't act like he is the first president to shove things down our throat.

This is true, but it is certainly the most expensive one and the one that has the most impact on each and every person's individual freedom. This bill will mean that we will essentially be ceding control over our bodies to a government official.

[Ablev1]

Won't pass or the dems will all be voted out. They know this. That is why the moderate dems are not warming up to it.

[Phatmax]

Kind of like the "read my lips, no new taxes" thing right?

Yup, just like he said when 95% of Americans would not get any higher taxes, yet the Bush tax breaks are being allowed to expire which means nearly EVERY taxpayer is going to get hit with 3% more income tax for this year. Considering I have not gotten a raise in two years, that means no cost of living either, I am getting a bit peeved. Then the talk of this fuel tax, and the deficit skyrocketing, and the national debt ballooning, and that is not even with the bill for healthcare.....

Oh wait, you were making a Bush41 comment.

Yeah, that was bullshit too and it got Bush41 de-elected.

[everyday3]

Simple fact is Obama is full of shit. My dog could do a better job than him. He dosent have a clue, his answer to everything is through more money at it. People dont have any more money and serious programs are starting to get cut. People are hurting bad and he thinks main street is on its way to recovery. 1 in every 3 freinds or family memers I know is laid off or out of work. Rant over

[Phatmax]

Simple fact is Obama is full of shit. My dog could do a better job than him. He dosent have a clue, his answer to everything is through more money at it. People dont have any more money and serious programs are starting to get cut. People are hurting bad and he thinks main street is on its way to recovery. 1 in every 3 freinds or family memers I know is laid off or out of work. Rant over

They are trying as hard as they can to create their socialist utopia before Nov. 2010. That is why Pelosi is asking the current crop of dems to be cannon fodder sacrifices come election time and vote for this pile of shit now.

Of course, with 40 more government offices, I think I know where the out of work congress critters will go.... Imagine that, having the same people in charge of your healthcare that did not listen to your voice right now.

[Ablev1]

Simple fact is Obama is full of shit. My dog could do a better job than him. He dosent have a clue, his answer to everything is through more money at it. People dont have any more money and serious programs are starting to get cut. People are hurting bad and he thinks main street is on its way to recovery. 1 in every 3 freinds or family memers I know is laid off or out of work. Rant over

Mostly agree he is FOS. I think he wants to do the right thing but doesn't know what he is really doing.
Really? your dog?
He is overspending no doubt
You say Obama is spenging but programs are getting cut. Unemployment benefits were just extended.....again. Socialism!!!
The facts show main street is better now than 1 year ago
What do your friends and family do for a living? Granted job creation is lagging but it is always the last indicator to make the turn

[Butthead]

unemployment in GA is up over 2% (from 8.x to 10.x) since this time last year. how has that improved "main street".


Mostly agree he is FOS. I think he wants to do the right thing but doesn't know what he is really doing.
Really? your dog?
He is overspending no doubt
You say Obama is spenging but programs are getting cut. Unemployment benefits were just extended.....again. Socialism!!!
The facts show main street is better now than 1 year ago
What do your friends and family do for a living? Granted job creation is lagging but it is always the last indicator to make the turn

[jkhonea]

unemployment in GA is up over 2% (from 8.x to 10.x) since this time last year. how has that improved "main street".

And IIRC, I believe I heard these current numbers may not be completely accurate as there is supposedly a large amount of people that have either gone through all of their unemployment benefits or simply given up.

[Dan43]

The facts show main street is better now than 1 year ago.Last year there were 5 people in my office to do the work. This year there are 3 people to do the work and we all made less money than we did last year. And to top it off I paid more in taxes this year (all taxes combined, not just federal income tax). So exactly how am I better off this year than I was last year?

[everyday3]

[SIZE=3]I work in architecture and my wife is a teacher. School budget deficits are getting worse every year for the last few years. My wife will probably loose here job this year and she is one of the hardest working people I have ever met. She does it for the kids, that a side the have cut all non teachers, part timers, field trips, chorus and band will be cut for next year, they have been furloed 12 days this year, and the sad part is she works for one of the better school systems. I ve been laid off twice from firms in the last 3 years do to them closing up. Most people I know are in similar situations. I am just tiered of this Socialist SOB pissing my hard earned money away and my kids futures away when does it stop. Rant 2 over/SIZE]

[Butthead]

sorry, i had to change the color. could not read it.


[SIZE=3]I work in architecture and my wife is a teacher. School budget deficits are getting worse every year for the last few years. My wife will probably loose here job this year and she is one of the hardest working people I have ever met. She does it for the kids, that a side the have cut all non teachers, part timers, field trips, chorus and band will be cut for next year, they have been furloed 12 days this year, and the sad part is she works for one of the better school systems. I ve been laid off twice from firms in the last 3 years do to them closing up. Most people I know are in similar situations. I am just tiered of this Socialist SOB pissing my hard earned money away and my kids futures away when does it stop. Rant 2 over/SIZE]

[Phatmax]

Mostly agree he is FOS. I think he wants to do the right thing but doesn't know what he is really doing.
Really? your dog?
He is overspending no doubt
You say Obama is spenging but programs are getting cut. Unemployment benefits were just extended.....again. Socialism!!!
The facts show main street is better now than 1 year ago
What do your friends and family do for a living? Granted job creation is lagging but it is always the last indicator to make the turn

I don't know what main street you are talking about, but since this time last year the 50 something year old company that built my subdivision has gone belly up, leaving unbuilt lots in my neighborhood. January had the worst new home sales since they started keeping records. Our company has laid off more people and hired none. As I said before this will be the second year of no pay raise and a 10% cut in my bonus, which was cut 10% last year too. It is harder and harder for our company to find work.
One of the wiring companies that our main office used for at least the last 15 years went out of business last month.

[everyday3]

sorry was already in word and decided to copy paste.

[Troutman]

I wish everyone would bring this kind of enthusiasm when it is time to vote. The problem is that these politicians - republicans or democrats - dont listen to the people anymore. Where are the real civil servants? All we have are career politicians now. What will it finally take to get people to go vote?

[Butthead]

we do have to remember the fact that, according to barry, unemployment would be higher had he not worked so tirelessly for the little people. (but he did say the spending would keep unemployment from reaching 10%). control, we have a problem.


And IIRC, I believe I heard these current numbers may not be completely accurate as there is supposedly a large amount of people that have either gone through all of their unemployment benefits or simply given up.

[Troutman]

Isnt that just capitalism at work? Supply and Demand?

[Phatmax]

I wish everyone would bring this kind of enthusiasm when it is time to vote. The problem is that these politicians - republicans or democrats - dont listen to the people anymore. Where are the real civil servants? All we have are career politicians now. What will it finally take to get people to go vote?

Read my thread about what is wrong with America

[Butthead]

plenty of us vote. what we need is for people like you who vote for liberals to stop voting. ;)


I wish everyone would bring this kind of enthusiasm when it is time to vote. The problem is that these politicians - republicans or democrats - dont listen to the people anymore. Where are the real civil servants? All we have are career politicians now. What will it finally take to get people to go vote?

[Troutman]

Read my thread about what is wrong with America

How do we change it? Party politics only causes division, which ultimately works in their favor, how do we fix it?

[Troutman]

plenty of us vote. what we need is for people like you who vote for liberals to stop voting. ;)

Case in point. Party Politics. I dont always vote with either side, hell I voted for Bush senior the first time I voted at 18. I rarely vote democratic in my local elections.

[Butthead]

of course it is. my point is the man is full of shit. he has no integrity - period.


Isnt that just capitalism at work? Supply and Demand?

[Troutman]

of course it is. my point is the man is full of shit. he has no integrity - period.

None of them do.

[Phatmax]

Isnt that just capitalism at work? Supply and Demand?

No, because at every turn the federal and state governments have inserted their greasy little fingers to "make things better". The real capitalist system has not been around for a long time. Nearly every aspect of business has some sort of government restrictions, rules, regulations, etc. that make ture capitalism a thing of the past.

I will try to find a good article about this, but that arguement that it is capitalism is false. The AIG bailout certainly was not capitalism, neither was the stimulus bill, the healthcare bill certainly is not either. Healthcare as it stands right now is not a capitalist type of system. The housing market has been co-opted by government intrusion and is no longer a capitalist / free-market.

[Troutman]

How do we change it?

[Butthead]

i hope that makes you sleep better at night while barry runs socialized medicine up your ass.


Case in point. Party Politics. I dont always vote with either side, hell I voted for Bush senior the first time I voted at 18. I rarely vote democratic in my local elections.

[Troutman]

No, because at every turn the federal and state governments have inserted their greasy little fingers to "make things better". The real capitalist system has not been around for a long time. Nearly every aspect of business has some sort of government restrictions, rules, regulations, etc. that make ture capitalism a thing of the past.

I will try to find a good article about this, but that arguement that it is capitalism is false. The AIG bailout certainly was not capitalism, neither was the stimulus bill, the healthcare bill certainly is not either. Healthcare as it stands right now is not a capitalist type of system. The housing market has been co-opted by government intrusion and is no longer a capitalist / free-market.

So you believe the market should be unregulated?

[Troutman]

i hope that makes you sleep better at night while barry runs socialized medicine up your ass.

Does it make you feel better to always oppose anything but conservative beliefs regardless of the end result?

[Phatmax]

How do we change it? Party politics only causes division, which ultimately works in their favor, how do we fix it?

Cut Spending / Cut Budgets / Cut Taxes and TERM LIMITS.

We now have what the hippies were crying about in the 1960's. An elite ruling class that is ruling into perpetuity. Career politicians who's only method of gaining the vote is "giving" stuff to constituents.

[Troutman]

Cut Spending / Cut Budgets / Cut Taxes and TERM LIMITS.

We now have what the hippies were crying about in the 1960's. An elite ruling class that is ruling into perpetuity. Career politicians who's only method of gaining the vote is "giving" stuff to constituents.


Solutions. Now we are getting somewhere. I believe term limits is where it should start along with everything else that you stated. Now we have to support canidates that support these values, but where are they?

[Troutman]

i hope that makes you sleep better at night while barry runs socialized medicine up your ass.

For the record I dont support this healthcare bill.

[Butthead]

i don't agree with that. i believe w has integrity. even though i disagreed with him on many points, i firmly believe he stood firm on his belief system even when detrimental to himself.


None of them do.

[Phatmax]

So you believe the market should be unregulated?

Show me a market that you believe to be "unregulated" that was / is causing problems and I can find government rules that have caused the real problem. Housing is a great one.

In the late 1980's and 1990's banks were forced by rules and REGULATIONS that Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and others put into place to give loans to people that could not pay them back. This was done for the grand goal of "increasing homeownership" and letting more people live the "American dream". The banks said, impossible. The Feds said, You must.... and so the sub-prime industry was born of regulations put into place BY THE GOVERNMENT.

[Butthead]

then why did you vote for him? he promised you social medicine.


For the record I dont support this healthcare bill.

[Troutman]

I dont believe that any markets are currently unregulated. The problem with unregulated markets in a capitalistic system is greed. How do you control greed, or the willingness to step on everyone no matter what to turn a profit?

[Butthead]

yes, i stand firm and fight for my belief system. how could a man do anything different?


Does it make you feel better to always oppose anything but conservative beliefs regardless of the end result?

[Dan43]

I wish everyone would bring this kind of enthusiasm when it is time to vote. The problem is that these politicians - republicans or democrats - dont listen to the people anymore. Where are the real civil servants? All we have are career politicians now. What will it finally take to get people to go vote?I vote every time the polls are open. But I also see the futility in voting. We are past the point where the people can influence the fate of the nation in the voting booth.

[everyday3]

I vote every time the polls are open. But I also see the futility in voting. We are past the point where the people can influence the fate of the nation in the voting booth.

Very true very sad

[Troutman]

then why did you vote for him? he promised you social medicine.

That was only one part of my decision. I have never said Barry is doing everything right, but I dont think he has done everything wrong either. What was my choice? McCain and Palin, cmon.

[Troutman]

Very true very sad


This is the attitude that has us where we are. Not even 30% turn out to the polls, thats embarassing.

[Butthead]

i happen to trust the instinces of business owners and business leaders more than politicians to determine the appropriate level of greed.


I dont believe that any markets are currently unregulated. The problem with unregulated markets in a capitalistic system is greed. How do you control greed, or the willingness to step on everyone no matter what to turn a profit?

[Dan43]

So you believe the market should be unregulated?The market should be regulated only to the extent needed to control fraud and abuse.

[Karl Hungus]

Things were so much simpler when we only had Walter Cronkite or the John Birch Society telling us what to think. Now we Have so much information that we don't know what to believe so we just pick one of the two "teams".

[Phatmax]

Solutions. Now we are getting somewhere. I believe term limits is where it should start along with everything else that you stated. Now we have to support canidates that support these values, but where are they?

Part of the problem is we have several generations of government school students who know next to nothing about the founding of this country and what it meant to early Americans to be a politician. Back then, it was self-imposed term limits, because the politicians where landowners and businessmen that temporarily gave up their livelihood to go serve their country. Once their one or two terms ended, they had to get back to REAL WORK in order to literally survive.

Now, people leave college with a law degree and a dream to be a politician or in politics.

Term Limits will have to come about from the lowest levels of government up. The local mayor, town council, state legislators, school superintendants....all, need to be given limits on their time in power, limiting their ability to become corrupted by position.

But that means an educated voter base, which does not exists for at least 50-60% of the population.

Hell in North Carolina they are literally trying to change the curriculum of American history to start in 1876, because it is "more current and the kids can relate to it better".

So how will these kids know about the American Revolution, throwing the shackles of tyranny to the ground and freedom?

How would this create a better citizen?

So to answer, start with your kids, the local education system and local government.

[Karl Hungus]

i happen to trust the instinces of business owners and business leaders more than politicians to determine the appropriate level of greed.

Fine, but that eventually gets you Bernie Madoff or Enron.

[Dan43]

Not true. The fed did not force any financial institution to relax leanding to people who were a bad credit risk. The fed did force all financial institutions to stop basing approval on the location of a property.

[Butthead]

so what has he done right?

close gitmo?

get out of iraq?

reduce troop levels in afghanistan?

reverse don't ask - don't tell?

lower unemployment?

reduce spending?

reduce the national debt?

build unity?

but hey, he has won the nobel prize and had some great musical acts to the white house. at least he has that going for him.


That was only one part of my decision. I have never said Barry is doing everything right, but I dont think he has done everything wrong either. What was my choice? McCain and Palin, cmon.

[Troutman]

yes, i stand firm and fight for my belief system. how could a man do anything different?

I am not challenging your testicular fortitude about your personal beliefs. Rather I am challenging the rational thought behind them, to believe in something so pridefully regardless of the repercussions.

[Ablev1]

Last year there were 5 people in my office to do the work. This year there are 3 people to do the work and we all made less money than we did last year. And to top it off I paid more in taxes this year (all taxes combined, not just federal income tax). So exactly how am I better off this year than I was last year?

I didn't say you were. How did you pay more in taxes if your income went down? The tax rate didn't go up. Last year we got small bonuses and no raises. This year we get decent raises and decent bonuses because our business actually grew. That being said, one person's situation is not reflective of the nation. You guys can say what you want, but the economy is better than it was this time last year.

[Troutman]

The market should be regulated only to the extent needed to control fraud and abuse.

+1

[Phatmax]

I dont believe that any markets are currently unregulated. The problem with unregulated markets in a capitalistic system is greed. How do you control greed, or the willingness to step on everyone no matter what to turn a profit?

There is NOTHING WRONG WITH GREED. That is the problem. Simple greed and self-interest is the best motivator to push society onward. CRIMINAL ACTS in the interest of greed, are just that criminal acts. The billionaire who steals from his clients has no different a greed motivation then the meth-head that steals your bike from the parking lot. There will always be criminal acts, on the street corner, on Wall St, or in government (CHARLIE RANGLE).

From an article about Adam Smith:

Smith did not view sympathy and self-interest as antithetical; they were complementary. “Man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren, and it is in vain for him to expect it from their benevolence only,” he explained in The Wealth of Nations.4

Charity, while a virtuous act, cannot alone provide the essentials for living. Self-interest is the mechanism that can remedy this shortcoming. Said Smith: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest” (ibid.).

Someone earning money by his own labor benefits himself. Unknowingly, he also benefits society, because to earn income on his labor in a competitive market, he must produce something others value. In Adam Smith’s lasting imagery, “By directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention.”5

[Dan43]

That was only one part of my decision. I have never said Barry is doing everything right, but I dont think he has done everything wrong either. What was my choice? McCain and Palin, cmon.As long as the democrates control Congress, then the smart choice for the White house is ANYBODY from the other party.

[Troutman]

Part of the problem is we have several generations of government school students who know next to nothing about the founding of this country and what it meant to early Americans to be a politician. Back then, it was self-imposed term limits, because the politicians where landowners and businessmen that temporarily gave up their livelihood to go serve their country. Once their one or two terms ended, they had to get back to REAL WORK in order to literally survive.

Now, people leave college with a law degree and a dream to be a politician or in politics.

Term Limits will have to come about from the lowest levels of government up. The local mayor, town council, state legislators, school superintendants....all, need to be given limits on their time in power, limiting their ability to become corrupted by position.

But that means an educated voter base, which does not exists for at least 50-60% of the population.

Hell in North Carolina they are literally trying to change the curriculum of American history to start in 1876, because it is "more current and the kids can relate to it better".

So how will these kids know about the American Revolution, throwing the shackles of tyranny to the ground and freedom?

How would this create a better citizen?

So to answer, start with your kids, the local education system and local government.


Good answer

[Butthead]

all of the pieces were in place to catch madoff. markopolos gave the SEC the case on a platter. the government idiots were too stupid to figure it out. the g'ment will always be 2 steps behind.


Fine, but that eventually gets you Bernie Madoff or Enron.

[Troutman]

As long as the democrates control Congress, then the smart choice for the White house is ANYBODY from the other party.

We need a real peoples party to emerge and not the Tea Baggers party. Guys like Ron Paul who get it.

[Ablev1]

Palin 2010! She will solve all of our problems! She is the messi.......nevermind

DJIA March 2009 was between 7-8K. Today it is at around 10.4 K. No, this is not because of BArry....Just pointing out that the economy is better. The DJIA doesn't represent the whole economy you say? I agree, but it is the main # the pundits use.

[Butthead]

ron paul is a kook. isolationism is not the way to help our economy.

[Butthead]

no possible way she could be any worse than this jackass we have in the oval office.


Palin 2010! She will solve all of our problems! She is the messi.......nevermind

[Phatmax]

Not true. The fed did not force any financial institution to relax leanding to people who were a bad credit risk. The fed did force all financial institutions to stop basing approval on the location of a property.

Well, Dodd /Frank /Carter and the CRA were the federal mechanism put into place to allow other non-gov groups to threaten banks into bad loans:

http://article.nationalreview.com/374045/planting-seeds-of-disaster/stanley-kurtz

[impalanar]

We need a real peoples party

Now where have I heard that before? What we need is an individualists party to emerge. There is nothing wrong with greed and selfishness.

[Dan43]

This is the attitude that has us where we are. Not even 30% turn out to the polls, thats embarassing.What attitude? Acknowledging reality is an attitude? Those of us that vote are presented with a "six of one or half a dozen of the other" choice. The choices in the voting booth do not change weather you have 30% or 90% of the people voting.

[Troutman]

so what has he done right?

close gitmo?

get out of iraq?

reduce troop levels in afghanistan?

reverse don't ask - don't tell?

lower unemployment?

reduce spending?

reduce the national debt?

build unity?

but hey, he has won the nobel prize and had some great musical acts to the white house. at least he has that going for him.

How can you judge a man after one year in office? he gets four by right, remember? The problems werent created in a year they will probabaly take more than that to correct.

[Troutman]

ron paul is a kook. isolationism is not the way to help our economy.

At least he offers a different option.

[Dan43]

I didn't say you were. How did you pay more in taxes if your income went down? The tax rate didn't go up. Last year we got small bonuses and no raises. This year we get decent raises and decent bonuses because our business actually grew. That being said, one person's situation is not reflective of the nation. You guys can say what you want, but the economy is better than it was this time last year.As I said in my post "ALL TAXES COMBINED". There is more to how much you pay in taxes than the federal income tax rate.

[Troutman]

Now where have I heard that before? What we need is an individualists party to emerge. There is nothing wrong with greed and selfishness.


We already have that party.

[Phatmax]

Palin 2010! She will solve all of our problems! She is the messi.......nevermind

DJIA March 2009 was between 7-8K. Today it is at around 10.4 K. No, this is not because of BArry....Just pointing out that the economy is better. The DJIA doesn't represent the whole economy you say? I agree, but it is the main # the pundits use.

The Dow is a terrible indicator. Most of the money tied up in the Dow is held by companies like Goldman Sachs and Berkshire. The constant shuttling of monies around the markets can make them look good, while what is actually happening is that money is being made off of misery. the reason it has gone up is that all the small investors that lost their shirts in the crash sold their shares. Those ended up in the massive holding houses.

The markets are being manipulated right now, but the structure holding them up is teetering. You can only make money like they are now for a short period of time, unless the economy gets better, but it is not getting better.

The Greek debacle is going to really tear a rent in the fabric of the economy...

Which is kind of interesting... the Greeks replaced their Debt Minister with a former Goldman Sachs exec.

and also AIG is getting involved...

Will AIG Force The US To Bail Out Greece?
PrintGregory White | Feb. 22, 2010, 7:23 AM | 2,064 | 9
Tags: Greece, Bailout, Debt, Derivatives, AIG

AIG is the newest name to be linked with Greece as the bailed out insurer has emerged as a source of CDS on the troubled state.

Two reports this weekend, both based on a German newspaper article, cited the U.S. government owned firm as a key supplier of CDS on Greek debt.

This could pull the U.S. into the Greek bailout as a means of protecting these firm's assets.

[Butthead]

those were barry's promises to the sheep who voted for him. YOU said he has not done everything wrong. my point was what has he done right?


How can you judge a man after one year in office? he gets four by right, remember? The problems werent created in a year they will probabaly take more than that to correct.

[Phatmax]

How can you judge a man after one year in office? he gets four by right, remember? The problems werent created in a year they will probabaly take more than that to correct.

Because, at least with spending the White House has to put out figures for more then the coming year.

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/wapoobamabudget1.jpg

[Butthead]

so did stalin.


At least he offers a different option.

[Dan43]

We need a real peoples party to emerge and not the Tea Baggers party. Guys like Ron Paul who get it.And that is why I say it is too late to change things in the voting booth. The republicans and the democrats have accumulated so much power to themselves that they will never allow a viable third party to come into existence.

[Phatmax]

And he promised 95% of Americans would see NO TAX INCREASE and we will get hit with at least a 3% increase.

[Dan43]

Palin 2010! She will solve all of our problems! She is the messi.......nevermind

DJIA March 2009 was between 7-8K. Today it is at around 10.4 K. No, this is not because of BArry....Just pointing out that the economy is better. The DJIA doesn't represent the whole economy you say? I agree, but it is the main # the pundits use.But just like movie critics..................the pundits are full of bovine fecal matter.

[jkhonea]

Part of the problem is we have several generations of government school students who know next to nothing about the founding of this country and what it meant to early Americans to be a politician. Back then, it was self-imposed term limits, because the politicians where landowners and businessmen that temporarily gave up their livelihood to go serve their country. Once their one or two terms ended, they had to get back to REAL WORK in order to literally survive.

Now, people leave college with a law degree and a dream to be a politician or in politics.

Term Limits will have to come about from the lowest levels of government up. The local mayor, town council, state legislators, school superintendants....all, need to be given limits on their time in power, limiting their ability to become corrupted by position.

But that means an educated voter base, which does not exists for at least 50-60% of the population.

Hell in North Carolina they are literally trying to change the curriculum of American history to start in 1876, because it is "more current and the kids can relate to it better".

So how will these kids know about the American Revolution, throwing the shackles of tyranny to the ground and freedom?

How would this create a better citizen?

So to answer, start with your kids, the local education system and local government.

Look at that timeline. They're proposing taking out the Revolutionary and Civil War segments. Both VERY important parts of history in which the people rose up in revolt against governments they did not believe in or which had abused its powers (not talking about slavery, so please lets keep that part of the discussion clear of this thread). That's pretty convenient considering how often you now hear people considering and condoning this exact course of action. Convenient, isn't it?

And make no mistake about it, short of armed revolution, term limits will NEVER be enacted in this current government (not Obama, the government overall in this day and time). They will NOT willingly stop the gravy train they have so carefully manipulated and nurtured to its current state. Look at this, the government is STILL voting in yearly raises, independent of the rest of the economy in the country going to shit. Where else can you pull off a feat like that.

Until term limits are enacted across the board, we will have zero chance of seeing politicians acting in our best interests. Period. They provide the fuel for the smoke and mirrors and manipulation of the public to keep the attention off of what's really going on behind the scenes until t hey slip their agendas through. And I say this for ALL politicians. Period. They are warped out of control and need to be adjusted.

[Phatmax]

We need a real peoples party to emerge and not the Tea Baggers party. Guys like Ron Paul who get it.

As much as you mock the Tea Party people, they ARE a people's party. Black, white, asian, hispanic, old, young, Democrats, Republicans.... You might be suprised by who actually is GOING to these Tea Parties. Don't just listen to MSNBC about them, find out for yourself, and not from CNN.

[jkhonea]

How can you judge a man after one year in office? he gets four by right, remember? The problems werent created in a year they will probabaly take more than that to correct.

You're kidding, right? Have you watched and studied ANYTHING he has done? At all? If he keeps going, we'll be royally screwed at the end of the four years.

[jkhonea]

We need a real peoples party to emerge and not the Tea Baggers party. Guys like Ron Paul who get it.

See, I completely despise this term. What the hell do you know of the Tea Party group other than what you've been force fed by the media? Have you actually studied what they're about and what they're proposing? Honestly? I'm betting you can't answer yes to that without lying. The Tea Party movement is made up of people from ALL political backgrounds, which many people seem to not understand or give credit to.

[everyday3]

Exactly

[Phatmax]

You're kidding, right? Have you watched and studied ANYTHING he has done? At all? If he keeps going, we'll be royally screwed at the end of the four years.

You can also judge a man by the company he keeps.

His past is full of ardent, verging on anti-American, progressives. His associations, and previous jobs have all been "progressive" and socialist in nature. This was gone over during the election and no one that supported him either believed it or thought it mattered.

Now we have a man trying his level best to ignore the will of the people and make "his will be done".

All of which will cost Americans dearly.

[impalanar]

We need a real peoples party

Now where have I heard that before? What we need is an individualists party to emerge. There is nothing wrong with greed and selfishness.

We already have that party.

Which party would that be?

[Hammerhead]

For the record I dont support this healthcare bill.

But you voted for Obama right? Back to my point.....What did you think would happen after he was in office? It's not like the healthcare bill was a suprise.

[DICKIEDOO]

Jesus guys! 9 pages in 4 hours! I didn't even get to shit on his plan. Oh well. Nice work GSB.

[Ablev1]

so did stalin.

Speaking of Stalin - Great non-fiction book to read is "Gulag Archipelago". Great book that reads like fiction. His writing what I would imagine Hunter S. Thompson's to be if he were Russian and lived through the Gulag. The origianl is three volumes, but I read the abridged version that suites my American short attention span theater style.

[Troutman]

Man I have to do some work and the wolves start going to work. Obviously there is no discussion in here only opinions repeated over and over that never change.

[Troutman]

See, I completely despise this term. What the hell do you know of the Tea Party group other than what you've been force fed by the media? Have you actually studied what they're about and what they're proposing? Honestly? I'm betting you can't answer yes to that without lying. The Tea Party movement is made up of people from ALL political backgrounds, which many people seem to not understand or give credit to.

All political backgrounds? You sure? How many minorties are in this group? Although I believe the tea party group was originally formed for all the right reasons it has turned into another mouth piece for the republican party. Mad white people that dont want to pay taxes is all I see from them.

[Troutman]

But you voted for Obama right? Back to my point.....What did you think would happen after he was in office? It's not like the healthcare bill was a suprise.

Like I said before, that was not the only reason I voted for him. I was not going to vote for McCain and Palin. I didnt vote for "change", I voted to give someone else a chance with a different mindset. We'll see how that all worksout in three more years.

You can carry on your Barry bashing now.

[Troutman]

Which party would that be?

Do I have to answer that? The Republicans obviously.

[Troutman]

You can also judge a man by the company he keeps.

His past is full of ardent, verging on anti-American, progressives. His associations, and previous jobs have all been "progressive" and socialist in nature. This was gone over during the election and no one that supported him either believed it or thought it mattered.

Now we have a man trying his level best to ignore the will of the people and make "his will be done".

All of which will cost Americans dearly.

What is the will of the people anyways? The opposition is always the loudest. Ever heard the term squeaky wheel gets the oil?

[Troutman]

those were barry's promises to the sheep who voted for him. YOU said he has not done everything wrong. my point was what has he done right?

Because no matter what right he does all his haters will spin it into his mistakes. Its the same things the Dems did to W and the conservatives to Clinton.

[Troutman]

Its was foolish to cut taxes in war time anyways. That was a political tool, just like the newly elected local mayor offering trash service for all residents. The tax cuts arent being extended and I am pretty sure you gat an extra 1000 bux this go round on your returns.

[Troutman]

Look at that timeline. They're proposing taking out the Revolutionary and Civil War segments. Both VERY important parts of history in which the people rose up in revolt against governments they did not believe in or which had abused its powers (not talking about slavery, so please lets keep that part of the discussion clear of this thread). That's pretty convenient considering how often you now hear people considering and condoning this exact course of action. Convenient, isn't it?

And make no mistake about it, short of armed revolution, term limits will NEVER be enacted in this current government (not Obama, the government overall in this day and time). They will NOT willingly stop the gravy train they have so carefully manipulated and nurtured to its current state. Look at this, the government is STILL voting in yearly raises, independent of the rest of the economy in the country going to shit. Where else can you pull off a feat like that.

Until term limits are enacted across the board, we will have zero chance of seeing politicians acting in our best interests. Period. They provide the fuel for the smoke and mirrors and manipulation of the public to keep the attention off of what's really going on behind the scenes until t hey slip their agendas through. And I say this for ALL politicians. Period. They are warped out of control and need to be adjusted.

+1

[Troutman]

As much as you mock the Tea Party people, they ARE a people's party. Black, white, asian, hispanic, old, young, Democrats, Republicans.... You might be suprised by who actually is GOING to these Tea Parties. Don't just listen to MSNBC about them, find out for yourself, and not from CNN.

Please. This party is so one sided Captain America even took a shot at them. I went to one in Loganville last year to hear Brett Harrell speak and the diversity that you speak of was not present.

[Troutman]

There are some more posts for you guys to disect and use against me. Enjoy.

[Phatmax]

Please. This party is so one sided Captain America even took a shot at them. I went to one in Loganville last year to hear Brett Harrell speak and the diversity that you speak of was not present.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMdPTpOyUk4&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M0ZOMXPzQ0&feature=related

http://nikolasschiller.com/photo/tea_party_912_2009/tea_party_912dc_12_blowing_mad_money.jpg

http://www.bookerrising.net/2010/01/chris-matthews-accuses-tea-party.html

http://api.ning.com/files/dFs19Np1Kpt0H3i1R3LHQf8*hngzMGQzEtewi8RvTvo_/6a01156fc5a11c970b0120a642e704970b500wi.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC36t4Bpm7Y


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Ksfrpyllw&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZqcHobg6UY&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124geu01qFk&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41MlOrOHz2c&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih4i3ixM0Xg&feature=related

[Phatmax]

What is the will of the people anyways? The opposition is always the loudest. Ever heard the term squeaky wheel gets the oil?

Do you actually read what is going on?

More people don't want this healthcare bill across the nation, then want it.

Obama is BUYING VOTES of reps. Bill Nelson, Mary Landrieu, Jim Matheson of Utah (Obama just appointed his BROTHER to the Appellate Court).

'Whatever it takes to get healthcare done,' said Press Secretary Robert Gibbs

From His Campaign:

"You've got to break out of what I call the sort of 50 plus one pattern of presidential politics which is you have nasty primaries where everybody's disheartened and beaten up. Then you divide the country 45 percent on one side, and 45 percent on the other, and 10 percent in the middle and (unintelligible) and Florida behind. And battle it out and then maybe you eke out a victory of 50 plus one. Then you can't govern. You know, you get Air Force One, I mean there are a lot of nice perks for being president. But you can't, you can't deliver on healthcare. We are not going to pass universal healthcare with a 50 plus one strategy. We're not going to have a serious, bold energy policy of the sort I proposed yesterday unless you build a working majority. "

"WE ARE NOT GOING TO PASS HEALTHCARE WITH A 50 PLUS ONE STRATEGY."

Now, it is everything he can do to scrap and steal and bribe to get his 50 + 1 vote.

YOU yourself said you don't want it, so how do you feel when you don't get listened to?

[Karl Hungus]

i hope that makes you sleep better at night while barry runs socialized medicine up your ass.

You've got your facts wrong. Everyone, including the Republican leadership, is saying this will be a down the throat thing.

[Phatmax]

There are some more posts for you guys to disect and use against me. Enjoy.

I understand that you really got excited with this new poltical figure that came on the scene. He promised to do nearly everything differently, a breath of fresh air in the halls of government. No lobbyists getting government positions. No buddy-buddy appointments to friends and cronies. Bi-partisanship, not more D vs R. Transparency.

But then he has gone back on all of those. Former lobbyists all over his administration, big donors to his campaign get cherry Ambassadorships to cool countries, more partisan action in the halls of congress then has been in many years. Closed door meetings all the time.

He even has the audacity to say in his speech yesterday "So I don't believe we should give government bureaucrats or insurance company bureaucrats more control over health care in America. "

WTF? So nationalized healthcare, RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT with government mandates and dictates and guidelines given to doctors about how to treat different illnesses is NOT giving government bureaucrats control????

I understand you REALLY liked this guy and hoped that he would be a change.... You can admit that he is not what you expected, or maybe not even what you wanted. I voted for McCain, and even though he did not win, I regret that vote, as McCain is just a bad as Obama.

It is ok to make a mistake and it is OK to admit it too. No one here is going to think less of you.

But, there is a big difference when you willfully ignore information and do not take the time to educate yourself on the issues, instead of just spouting the lines you hear or read on your regular sources. I know you will think I mean Fox or Rush or Hannity. I am not even talking about those guys.

When I hear or read something, I go to other news sources, foreign press, local papers, local newssites, and do real fact checks.

Your understanding of Tea Parties being only white people is a good indication that you really are only regurgitating what you are given.

PLEASE. Actually go out and do research. If someone tells you that "only white people do that", go find out for yourself, because it is probably not true.

If someone says that "most people want healthcare", actually look at real polls.

[Phatmax]

You've got your facts wrong. Everyone, including the Republican leadership, is saying this will be a down the throat thing.

NOW THAT is some funny shit.

[Troutman]

I understand that you really got excited with this new poltical figure that came on the scene. He promised to do nearly everything differently, a breath of fresh air in the halls of government. No lobbyists getting government positions. No buddy-buddy appointments to friends and cronies. Bi-partisanship, not more D vs R. Transparency.

But then he has gone back on all of those. Former lobbyists all over his administration, big donors to his campaign get cherry Ambassadorships to cool countries, more partisan action in the halls of congress then has been in many years. Closed door meetings all the time.

He even has the audacity to say in his speech yesterday "So I don't believe we should give government bureaucrats or insurance company bureaucrats more control over health care in America. "

WTF? So nationalized healthcare, RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT with government mandates and dictates and guidelines given to doctors about how to treat different illnesses is NOT giving government bureaucrats control????

I understand you REALLY liked this guy and hoped that he would be a change.... You can admit that he is not what you expected, or maybe not even what you wanted. I voted for McCain, and even though he did not win, I regret that vote, as McCain is just a bad as Obama.

It is ok to make a mistake and it is OK to admit it too. No one here is going to think less of you.

But, there is a big difference when you willfully ignore information and do not take the time to educate yourself on the issues, instead of just spouting the lines you hear or read on your regular sources. I know you will think I mean Fox or Rush or Hannity. I am not even talking about those guys.

When I hear or read something, I go to other news sources, foreign press, local papers, local newssites, and do real fact checks.

Your understanding of Tea Parties being only white people is a good indication that you really are only regurgitating what you are given.

PLEASE. Actually go out and do research. If someone tells you that "only white people do that", go find out for yourself, because it is probably not true.

If someone says that "most people want healthcare", actually look at real polls.


I guess you have it all figured out. I went to Tea Party meeting. Did you miss that? While I think the concept is good the direection it is taking is not and most of the people involved in it have a mob mentatlity.

I still think it is to early to judge whether my vote for Obama was a mistake or not. Not that it mattered here in Georgia since McCain still carried the state. Only time will tell. And if it was a mistake I will be the first to admit it, I dont have a problem with mistakes as long as I learn something.

[Troutman]

Phatmax - where the hell have you been anyways? You were gone for months and now all of the sudden full steam ahead? Good to have you back because you do offer good information and discussion.

[Troutman]

new bill...
Obama's updated plan.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6220TH20100303


Quote:
(Reuters) - President Barack Obama is preparing a final push for a healthcare overhaul and is expected to announce a plan on Wednesday to move the ambitious legislation forward without support from opposition Republicans.

Last week he announced what he wanted in legislation to bridge differences with bills passed by the House of Representatives and Senate. On Tuesday Obama listed some Republican ideas that he said he was considering.

Here is a summary of his proposals and the Republican ideas he is exploring.

EXCHANGES AND GOVERNMENT-RUN INSURANCE OPTION

The White House plan calls for state-based insurance exchanges similar to the proposal in the Senate-passed bill.

The White House proposal does not call for the creation of a new government-run health insurance program -- the so-called public option -- supported by liberals and included in the House bill.

Instead, it sticks with the Senate version, which provides for the federal Office of Personnel Management to negotiate with private insurers to provide multi-state health plans on the exchanges.

TAX REVENUES

The White House rejected the House-proposed 5.4 percent surtax on high-income households -- the so-called millionaires' tax -- and instead adopted the Senate approach to raise the Medicare tax on high-income earners to 2.9 percent from 2.35 percent. But the White House plan goes one step further and would impose a new 2.9 percent Medicare tax on some investment income for high-income people. Medicare is the government health insurance program for the elderly and disabled.

The White House plan also modifies the proposed Senate tax on high-cost insurance plans. The so-called "Cadillac" tax would kick in on plans costing $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for family plans. The starting date for the tax is 2018 rather than 2013 as originally called for in the Senate bill. The change is similar to a deal worked out with labor unions, but would apply to all plans.

The proposal also provides higher tax thresholds for firms that have higher costs because they employ mostly women or older workers. It also provides higher thresholds for high-risk professions such as firefighters.

Obama's plan increases proposed new assessments on brand-name pharmaceuticals to raise $23 billion over 10 years, compared to $10 billion in the Senate bill. Those assessments would be delayed by one year until 2011.

The White House proposes closing a tax loophole on a cellulosic biofuels credit to prevent it from being used for a paper processing byproduct. It would also clarify "economic substance" tax rules on investment transactions and raise penalties on transactions that have no economic purpose except to avoid paying taxes.

AFFORDABILITY

The White House plan would improve affordability by taking favorable provisions from the House and Senate bills to help both low- and moderate-income families. A family of four earning as much as $88,000 a year would receive federal assistance in paying for healthcare costs.

The bill would also gradually close the so-called "doughnut" hole in Medicare prescription drug coverage. Medicare now stops paying for drugs after both the plan and beneficiary have spent $2,830. Coverage starts again only after out-of-pocket spending hits $4,550. By 2020, the coverage gap would be closed.

REGULATION

The White House plan would allow young adults up to the age of 26 to stay on a parent's health insurance plan. Within months of enactment, insurers would be barred from dropping people from their health plans. When exchanges begin operation in 2014, insurers would be barred from excluding people for pre-existing conditions and setting annual and lifetime coverage limits. The Department of Health and Human Services would get new authority to help states review annual premium rate increases.

MANDATES

The White House keeps the Senate and House requirement that individuals purchase health insurance. It sided with the Senate on not imposing an employer mandate and assessing fees on those uninsured companies with employees receiving subsidized health policies on the exchange. The White House modified the fees that those companies would pay.

Small firms with fewer than 50 employees would be exempt from those requirements. But a tax credit is provided to encourage small companies to offer health coverage to workers.

REPUBLICAN IDEAS BEING EXPLORED

*An idea by Senator Tom Coburn that medical professionals be engaged to conduct undercover investigations of healthcare providers to reduce waste and fraud in Medicare and Medicaid.

*Increase proposed grants to states for demonstration projects to resolve medical malpractice disputes and curb the need for lawsuits. Some $23 million has been approved for these programs and Obama said he is considering authorizing as much as $50 million for the projects.

*Increasing doctor reimbursements for Medicaid patients. Obama said Senator Charles Grassley raised a concern about Medicaid reimbursement rates at last week's White House healthcare "summit."

*A proposal by Senator John Barrasso to expand health savings accounts used in conjunction with high-deductible health plans. Obama said he is open to including high-deductible health plans on proposed new insurance exchanges to encourage more people to take advantage of the health savings accounts.

[Phatmax]

Phatmax - where the hell have you been anyways? You were gone for months and now all of the sudden full steam ahead? Good to have you back because you do offer good information and discussion.

Found out in late August that the wife has colon cancer and we have been involved in getting her treated. She is still in chemo and our daughter is now a year old, so it has been a bit rough.

ETA: So I seriously have a major bone to pick about this Healthcare bill. She is stage 4 and the medicine is helping...but the treatment she is getting is the type that government plans such as the Canadian one and British one DON'T pay for.

If this monster passes, it literally could be a death sentance for my 33 year old wife.

[impalanar]

Do I have to answer that? The Republicans obviously.

I knew that was going to be your answer, but I wanted you to say it so you couldn't say I put words in your mouth. Now, tell me how they are different than the Democrats? Have you read Atlas Shrugged? Do you know what I mean when I say "greed and selfishness?"

I have trouble believing you are 31 and not 21.

[Troutman]

Sorry to hear about that man, really.

You wouldnt be on a government plan would you? Please explain that a little more please.

[impalanar]

Found out in late August that the wife has colon cancer and we have been involved in getting her treated. She is still in chemo and our daughter is now a year old, so it has been a bit rough.

ETA: So I seriously have a major bone to pick about this Healthcare bill. She is stage 4 and the medicine is helping...but the treatment she is getting is the type that government plans such as the Canadian one and British one DON'T pay for.

If this monster passes, it literally could be a death sentance for my 33 year old wife.

Wow. Sorry to hear this man, prayers and happy thoughts her way.

[Troutman]

I knew that was going to be your answer, but I wanted you to say it so you couldn't say I put words in your mouth. Now, tell me how they are different than the Democrats? Have you read Atlas Shrugged? Do you know what I mean when I say "greed and selfishness?"

I have trouble believing you are 31 and not 21.


You are right. I should have said both parties.

I have not read Atlas Shrugged. I did however just read about it on wikapedia. Is that where "greed and selfishnes" fits in?

Why do you always feel the need to insult people instead of just talking to people in a respectable manner? Seems to be a trend with you.

[Karl Hungus]

Phatmax, sorry to hear this. And it's good to have you back. You're bringing intelligence to this debate even if I don't agree with you on everything.

My mother-in-law is also stage 4 with cancer in her lungs and bones. She's old enough for Medicare and has supplemental insurance, so her experience financially has been very good. So good in fact that it's easy to see how Medicare is going broke. Something has to give.

[Phatmax]

Sorry to hear about that man, really.

You wouldnt be on a government plan would you? Please explain that a little more please.

Thanks. No, we are on the BCBS plan from my work. The medications she is on are hyper-expensive and don't have a stellar track record, BUT, when it does work, it does great things. These are drugs the the British NHS won't pay for because whatever bureaucratic government math formula they use, it does not "warrant" the expenditure.

Plus she is stage 4 colon cancer and statistically the survival rate is only 2 years. We are already 6 months into that time period and are going to be fighting this thing until there are no options left. However, when a government bean counter looks at that, such as they do in other countries where medicine is socialized... the formula's they use proclaim treatment to attempt cure to be a "waste" and will only cover pallative treatment until death.

I am sure we would be able to go to a private doctor once healthcare is in place and pay out of pocket for medicine and treatment....but in 6 months, suffice it to say, her treatment so far has equaled our total GROSS yearly income. We certainly don't have that kind of cash laying around.... So, if the government decides that my wife's LIFE is not worth trying to save because of some mathematical, statistical formula....What do we do?

The median diagnosis age for this disease is actually 71 years, so here we are with a statistical anomaly with colon cancer in a woman in her early 30's. With a baby daughter. I think that warrants as many attempts at stopping the disease as possible and THANK GOD I have a job that gives me access to a great plan that is working on saving my wife's life.

[Troutman]

Honestly Man.....I feel for you and your family. I wish you well and pray for a speedy recovery and your mental health as well. I know you didnt come in for a pity party but I seriously feel for you and your family.

[impalanar]

Why do you always feel the need to insult people? Instead of just talking to people in a respectable manner. Seems to be a trend with you.

If you feel that my questioning your age is an insult, my apologies. I just see a good bit of naivety in a lot of your posts which would point to a younger person a la Winston Churchill's quote.

I would like to see this "trend" you point to though.

[Phatmax]

Honestly Man.....I feel for you and your family. I wish you well and pray for a speedy recovery and your mental health as well. I know you didnt come in for a pity party but I seriously feel for you and your family.

Thank you. I appreciate it and yeah, it is now just part of life. It is amazing how even something like this can become "normal".

Here is a pic from just last month...http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/phatmax/Picture1236.jpg

now... back to the debate....



I do understant that you went to A tea party event, and it is not really shocking that a lot of folks are white. What I am saying is that, unless they are somehow branded, their prior political affiliations are impossible to tell.

Plus, when you say "mob mentality", I understand your meaning, however... This is the same sort of grassroots movement that ended segregation. That movement started in areas all over the country and took time to unite. It also took a while for that movement to define a leader in MLK.

This is also the same type of movement that birthed this country. Groups of individuals coming together for a common cause, but WITHOUT aspirations to lead. The leadership that was formed from the tax protests before the Revolution came about as the best and the brightest in the country were drawn into the movement and leadership was thrust upon them.

[Troutman]

Thank you. I appreciate it and yeah, it is now just part of life. It is amazing how even something like this can become "normal".



now... back to the debate....





I do understant that you went to A tea party event, and it is not really shocking that a lot of folks are white. What I am saying is that, unless they are somehow branded, their prior political affiliations are impossible to tell.

Plus, when you say "mob mentality", I understand your meaning, however... This is the same sort of grassroots movement that ended segregation. That movement started in areas all over the country and took time to unite. It also took a while for that movement to define a leader in MLK.

This is also the same type of movement that birthed this country. Groups of individuals coming together for a common cause, but WITHOUT aspirations to lead. The leadership that was formed from the tax protests before the Revolution came about as the best and the brightest in the country were drawn into the movement and leadership was thrust upon them.

Good post.....Those are some solid points.

[Troutman]

The folks that were there were mainly republicans just like all of the speakers and everyone else in Walton County. Maybe I should go to some different ones.

[Troutman]

If you feel that my questioning your age is an insult, my apologies. I just see a good bit of naivety in a lot of your posts which would point to a younger person a la Winston Churchill's quote.

I would like to see this "trend" you point to though.

I'm not going to go through threads to pull out posts where you were less than courteous with people that shared differing opinions. I dont need to prove my opinion to you, I have seen it before and thats good enough for me.

I also dont understand how you would think calling someone immature and naive would not be an insult....This is where I fail to grasp your logic. This post doesnt justify a response unless you feel the need to supply one. I just wanted to respond to yours.

[impalanar]

The folks that were there were mainly republicans just like all of the speakers and everyone else in Walton County. Maybe I should go to some different ones.

The question I have is, were they Republicans or were they conservatives fed up with the Republican party? I would fall in the latter category, and when I voted in the '08 election I did not vote for Obama or McCain. There were other choices. Although, in all honesty, had it come down to those two being the only names on the ballet I would have written in a name or abstained from voting for President.

The sooner we figure out that we can no longer afford to vote for the lesser of evils or that electing buzzwords is not a good idea, the better off we are going to be.

[Dan43]

Hate to hear about your wife being ill Max. Welcome back though.

[Phatmax]

The question I have is, were they Republicans or were they conservatives fed up with the Republican party? I would fall in the latter category, and when I voted in the '08 election I did not vote for Obama or McCain. There were other choices. Although, in all honesty, had it come down to those two being the only names on the ballet I would have written in a name or abstained from voting for President.

The sooner we figure out that we can no longer afford to vote for the lesser of evils or that electing buzzwords is not a good idea, the better off we are going to be.

I think this a a major part of what is happening. I, for one, am disgusted by the Republican party for their departure from small government and personal freedom. I am also disgusted by the Democrat party for their socialist platform and ultra-left views. I don't believe that the Libertarian party has what it takes to become a true representation of American's and to be a party willing to defend our nation in this era.

I believe that both parties have been co-opted by career politicians and by their "pilot fish"....all the hangers-on .

[jkhonea]

Max, so sorry to hear about your wife. If there's anything that we can do, please let us know. And welcome back.

[impalanar]

I'm not going to go through threads to pull out posts where you were less than courteous with people that shared differing opinions. I dont need to prove my opinion to you, I have seen it before and thats good enough for me.

I also dont understand how you would think calling someone immature and naive would not be an insult....This is where I fail to grasp your logic. This post doesnt justify a response unless you feel the need to supply one. I just wanted to respond to yours.

I will be the first to admit that I am an asshole and I never said my comments were logic based, just a feeling I had.

Edit: For the record, I often wish I were immature and naive again.

Edit x2: Good on you for being in here and willing to take part in these discussions. Even if you or I never manage to convince the other of anything and we stay at odds just being willing to throw yourself into the mix says a lot about you.

[Phatmax]

Hate to hear about your wife being ill Max. Welcome back though.

Thank you, and thanks for all the other well-wishes.

[DICKIEDOO]

I think this a a major part of what is happening. I, for one, am disgusted by the Republican party for their departure from small government and personal freedom. I am also disgusted by the Democrat party for their socialist platform and ultra-left views. I don't believe that the Libertarian party has what it takes to become a true representation of American's and to be a party willing to defend our nation in this era.

I believe that both parties have been co-opted by career politicians and by their "pilot fish"....all the hangers-on .

Thats the most well spoken thought in this whole thread. Well said Sir.



I will be the first to admit that I am an asshole and I never said my comments were logic based, just a feeling I had.

Edit: For the record, I often wish I were immature and naive again.

Edit x2: Good on you for being in here and willing to take part in these discussions. Even if you or I never manage to convince the other of anything and we stay at odds just being willing to throw yourself into the mix says a lot about you.

Yes, David is an asshole (just kidding, but seriously), and you may never see eye to eye but the discussions on here are usually well worth it. David and Frank are the 2 people I enjoy debating on here the most because the conversations are hard to find elsewhere from people in my age bracket. We usually agree to disagree and I thank them for the conversation. I'm 27 BTW.

Max, sorry to hear about your family. Prayer sent to your's. BTW: Nice having you back.

[Butthead]

max, all my prayers coming your way. i wish you would have let us know earlier. God bless you and your family.

[Troutman]

I will be the first to admit that I am an asshole and I never said my comments were logic based, just a feeling I had.

Edit: For the record, I often wish I were immature and naive again.

Edit x2: Good on you for being in here and willing to take part in these discussions. Even if you or I never manage to convince the other of anything and we stay at odds just being willing to throw yourself into the mix says a lot about you.

:beer: