next up on immigration -- FL

[Butthead]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/11/florida-ag-mccollum-unveils-immigration-modeled-arizonas/

florida is much more powerful than arizona -- this is gonna get good.

[impalanar]

I see a boycott of FL going over like a fart in a diving helmet. "No Suzy, we can't go see Mickey Mouse because the evil people in FL want to enforce the law."

[wallypiper]

We are living through a remarkable period in our nation's history.

[NiceGuysFinishLast]

We are living through a remarkable period in our nation's history.


Truth.

[Butthead]

these are issues that have needed to be addressed for a long time.


We are living through a remarkable period in our nation's history.

[wallypiper]

True, but while the gravy train was running, states and citizens were not moved to act. Now that the federal government's years of irresponsible behavior are starting to bear rotten fruit, people and state and local government are beginning to revolt in ever growing numbers. It may be the end of an era.

[Karl Hungus]

We've been through this before. For 60 years it was illegal for a Chinese person to immigrate to the US. That meant zero. Then for another 22 years we had a quota of 105 per year. Nativism always rears its ugly head in hard times.

[winmutt]

On face value of the the bill as reported in that article, I see no reason why it should be questioned. The difference is that in AZ the cops are allowed to pull over/detain people in order ask for immigration papers. In FL its only if its a lawful stop. I see nothing wrong with this.

The only problem I see is requiring an immigrant to carry papers. The issue will be when a US citizen is detained for not having papers as a passenger in a vehicle. This will certainly cause problems as long as US citizens are not required to carry identification.

[Dan43]

On face value of the the bill as reported in that article, I see no reason why it should be questioned. The difference is that in AZ the cops are allowed to pull over/detain people in order ask for immigration papers. In FL its only if its a lawful stop. I see nothing wrong with this.

The only problem I see is requiring an immigrant to carry papers. The issue will be when a US citizen is detained for not having papers as a passenger in a vehicle. This will certainly cause problems as long as US citizens are not required to carry identification.I think you need to go back and read the AZ law again.

[impalanar]

I think you need to go back and read the AZ law again.

What he said.

[winmutt]

I didnt know it had changed between the state bill and what went into law.....

[impalanar]

I didnt know it had changed between the state bill and what went into law.....

Me either. But the opponents were saying it said one thing, when it didn't.

[winmutt]

The state bill did not say a lawful stop was required. For me atleast, that was all the hubub.

Again detaining lawful law abiding citizens because of their race is, as far as I am concerned, illegal. And that will be where the SCOTUS will makes these laws illegal. Until all citizens are required to carry identification and are force provide it to a LEO without cause.

[impalanar]

The state bill did not say a lawful stop was required. For me atleast, that was all the hubub.

Again detaining lawful law abiding citizens because of their race is, as far as I am concerned, illegal. And that will be where the SCOTUS will makes these laws illegal. Until all citizens are required to carry identification and are force provide it to a LEO without cause.

You are correct. It said "Lawful Contact" and seeing someone is brown and asking them for their ID is not lawful contact.

[Dan43]

The state bill did not say a lawful stop was required. For me atleast, that was all the hubub.

Again detaining lawful law abiding citizens because of their race is, as far as I am concerned, illegal. And that will be where the SCOTUS will makes these laws illegal. Until all citizens are required to carry identification and are force provide it to a LEO without cause.The AZ law requires LEO to already have contact with a suspect BEFORE they can ask about immigration status. In otherwords if someone gets stopped for X and during the course of that stop the LEO decides that there is reason to suspect that the person they have stopped is not in the US legally, THEN they can demand to see documentation showing the persons immigration/citizenship status.

[winmutt]

Yes, but a passenger in a vehicle is having to show documents because they are brown. That is a problem.

[G_MAN]

The only problem I see is requiring an immigrant to carry papers. The issue will be when a US citizen is detained for not having papers as a passenger in a vehicle. This will certainly cause problems as long as US citizens are not required to carry identification.

I think we discussed this issue before, but if requested by LEO you are required to provide some type of identification and can be held until your identity is established.

[winmutt]

Only if stopped during lawful contact. I dont believe pulling someone over for a right turn on red and questioning a passenger in the car is one of those. If it was a proper roadblock then by all means. The passenger has done nothing wrong, that is why a warrant is required to search their person.

[MrBlah]

breaking a law is by far much more of a reason to ask everyone in the car for papers than a roadblock is IMO

[winmutt]

Yes but the passenger did not break the law. In a roadblock the lawful contact is applied to all and according to the SCOTUS that is legal due process (I would argue otherwise but there you have it).

[MONICA]

Only if stopped during lawful contact. I dont believe pulling someone over for a right turn on red and questioning a passenger in the car is one of those. If it was a proper roadblock then by all means. The passenger has done nothing wrong, that is why a warrant is required to search their person.

I see police officers on shows like Cops ask for ID from passengers all the time. I'm not sure what circumstances would make it any different.

[winmutt]

I see police officers on shows like Cops ask for ID from passengers all the time. I'm not sure what circumstances would make it any different.

The ones where they take the passenger to jail for not having ID on them.

[MONICA]

The ones where they take the passenger to jail for not having ID on them.

Well, I look at it this way. Legal immigrants are required by federal law to carry papers. Police have the ability to ask passengers for ID. If a passenger in a car does not have ID, and speaks little to no English, then either they are a legal immigrant that is breaking the federal law by not carrying their ID, or they are an illegal immigrant. Either way they can be detained. I don't see any way that a US citizen by birth could make it through school without speaking English, even if they dropped out at 16.

[winmutt]

Its entirely possible.

On another note, having spent the weekend in NYC. What about all the Russians? These cant all be legal? What about them?

[MONICA]

Its entirely possible.

On another note, having spent the weekend in NYC. What about all the Russians? These cant all be legal? What about them?

NY should pass and enforce the same law. It should apply everywhere. There is nothing in the law that specifically points to a certain ethnicity. I mean it is after all the federal law already, Arizona is just turning these folks over to the feds. It's not like AZ created new immigration law. They just decided to turn people over to the feds, and then the feds have to deal with it. I don't know exactly how the Florida law is different.

[impalanar]

Its entirely possible.

On another note, having spent the weekend in NYC. What about all the Russians? These cant all be legal? What about them?

I recommend they stay out of AZ as well.

[MONICA]

I recommend they stay out of AZ as well.

Good one. :)

[winmutt]

NY should pass and enforce the same law. It should apply everywhere. There is nothing in the law that specifically points to a certain ethnicity. I mean it is after all the federal law already, Arizona is just turning these folks over to the feds. It's not like AZ created new immigration law. They just decided to turn people over to the feds, and then the feds have to deal with it. I don't know exactly how the Florida law is different.

You are right. I don't really have a problem with people showing ID, I just have a problem with them showing it because of the way they look. It has been discussed before and I don't remember the answer but I really don't have a problem with everyone above the age of 18 being required to have ID. Under 18 should get a pass for obvious reasons.

[SpeedGeek]

Yes, but a passenger in a vehicle is having to show documents because they are brown. That is a problem.

But if they are Asian they don't?

You know, THIS is EXACTLY the part of the left's argument that always pissed me off... At WHAT POINT did anyone say we were only after getting rid of "brown" (Hispanic) illegals? Illegals come from EVERYWHERE. Illegal is Illegal, regardless of ethnic origin.

The left automatically tries to change the issue into racism when the issue is about breaking immigration laws...
D
While it happens that in Az the majority of the illegals are Hispanic, that might not be the case in GA, or Washington state for instance (which has a HUGE Asian population). That is NOT a racist action. I would expect the officer in question to ask for documentation of status on everyone in a vehicle packed with 10 Asians, Europeans, or whatever, just like they would a vehicle crammed with a bunch of Hispanics.

The law simply says that in the course of an interaction, if the officer has reasonable suspicion of status they can ask for documentation. 8 people crammed into a falling apart van, probably a good indication of illegals. Nobody in the car speaking a bit of English, probably a reason to check... A single person in a decently maintained, properly licensed and insured vehicle who ran a stop sign, who speaks to the officer in English, could be as Hispanic as they come and probably won't get asked for documentation...

Don't want to get into trouble? Follow the fricking LAW and come here legally, following the PROCESS. Don't like the process, you are MORE than welcome to go back home. Nobody is forcing you to stay, or come here in the first place.

[Karl Hungus]

The LEOs in Arizona are having the hardest time with the Canadian illegals. They mostly speak good English, so it's very hard to know which ones to ask for documentation. And the slick ones have figured out how to mask their accents. They just say, "what do you mean, papers? I'm an American."

[winmutt]

But if they are Asian they don't?

Your problem shouldn't be with the left it would be with the right. I don't hear a single mouth piece complaining about any other kind of illegals, only the ones from the south.

[impalanar]

Your problem shouldn't be with the left it would be with the right. I don't hear a single mouth piece complaining about any other kind of illegals, only the ones from the south.

I like herring, the red kind are my favorite.

[winmutt]

I like herring, the red kind are my favorite.

Am I wrong? When the specifics are mentioned its always the ones from the south.

[impalanar]

Am I wrong? When the specifics are mentioned its always the ones from the south.

Where did I say you were wrong? I said your statement was a red herring.

Since you would never actually say WHY that is all you hear about, I will show you.

This was as of 1996:


All countries 5,000,000
1. Mexico 2,700,000
2. El Salvador 335,000
3. Guatemala 165,000
4. Canada 120,000
5. Haiti 105,000
6. Philippines 95,000
7. Honduras 90,000
8. Dominican Republic 2 75,000
9. Nicaragua 70,000
10. Poland 70,000
11. Colombia 65,000
12. Ecuador 55,000
13. Trinidad & Tobago 50,000
14. Jamaica 50,000
15. Pakistan 41,000
16. India 33,000
17. Ireland 30,000
18. Korea 30,000
19. Peru 30,000
20. Portugal 27,000
Other 764,000

[MONICA]

Am I wrong? When the specifics are mentioned its always the ones from the south.

Well, when you have a huge violent drug war going on with cartels from Mexico, that's bound to get more attention. Also, the governor of AZ shined a spotlight on their issues with the gangs, drugs, etc, coming in from Mexico, whereas I've never heard of any of the northern states doing anything like this. If they had been Russians, Canadians, or Asian, I'm pretty sure the governor would have acted the same way.

[SpeedGeek]

Nobody on the right has EVER said "keep out/throw out the mexicans". They have only said "enforce the laws" and those laws apply universally across the board to all illegals...

Don't believe me that it's the left that immediately throws down the race card??? Watch ANY interview on CNN, MSNBC or Fox News about immigration with people from both sides. I GUARANTEE you the representative from the left will say "this is about hating mexicans" or something to that effect and the person from the right will say "we just want out borders secured and our laws obeyed by everyone."