Duk VS Jap Bikes

[Mortalis5509]

I'm wanting to know the advantages and disadvantages of a Ducati vs an R6,R1 (or some other Japanese bike)?

Lets leave out price because the Ducati is higher. Comparing, power, quality, street ride ability, tack performance, bang for your buck, braking, and whatever other aspect that I left out.

[JSKeezy]

From what I recall, and the only thing that I could think of is that the Duc come with superior aftermarket parts. The engine compared to an R1 is the same in my opinion....

[Eight4]

Duc's require more maintaince than Jap bikes. My brother from another mother in Cali had a 848. He sold it and got a 09 R1 because of the cost to keep it maintained.

[bigb996]

ducati has more style in my opinion, i mean lets face it the new R1 has a face only a mother could love.

[wallypiper]

IMO, you can only see what your motorcycle looks like when you're not riding it so who cares.

Of course, there's that whole soul thing. Squire?

[Fubar]

I like the R1 looks.. sharp

[Mongo]

The only real difference I can think of is they deliver power differently, on the track the twins tend to have more tractable power. Overall there isn't a lot of difference, the maintenance costs aren't more for the Duc's versus a properly maintained 4 and it really isn't some freaky Italian magic to do it yourself.

They do have a different style, they have a different feel, they have a different sound, but really it's like any other purchase of a toy - buy what you like. I like the sound and style of most of the Ducati's but not all. Then again, I find my ugly ass 1125 to be endearing :D

[durendaal]

I've always thought it's like a Mazda or a Toyota vs a Lambourgini and a Ferrari. Yeah, they'll get you where you want to go and, in the case of Mazda at least, the responsiveness is fun and in-tune. However, a Mazda is a Mazda and a Ferrari is a Ferrari. The Ferrari has more class, more soul, sexier, costs more, etc. LOL.
But I ride a CBR600RR. LOL, Jap bikes have served me well.

[durendaal]

And drive a Mazda!


I've always thought it's like a Mazda or a Toyota vs a Lambourgini and a Ferrari. Yeah, they'll get you where you want to go and, in the case of Mazda at least, the responsiveness is fun and in-tune. However, a Mazda is a Mazda and a Ferrari is a Ferrari. The Ferrari has more class, more soul, sexier, costs more, etc. LOL.
But I ride a CBR600RR. LOL, Jap bikes have served me well.

[Snafu484]

I like the R1 looks.. sharp

You should hear one with the stock mufflers gutted.... sounds MEAN :lol:

[saboulet]

And drive a Mazda!

You made me LOLZ

[Mortalis5509]

You should hear one with the stock mufflers gutted.... sounds MEAN :lol:

Got a clip of one?

[SquireSCA]

Well, I have had half a dozen of each at this point in the last 3 or 4 years, and I can say that overall, I prefer the Ducs.

Jap bikes are very fast, very reliable. They handle well. There is nothing wrong with them, and because of their lower cost, they are usually the "best bang for the buck". However, the Italian bikes tend to have a different feel to them. They look different, sound different and the way they develop power is different. The ducs typically come with upgraded components that would cost you extra on the Jap bikes. And while the Ducs cost more, they also tend to hold their value better when you go to sell them. An R1 has an MSRP of around 13 grand, so they are not exactly cheap anyway.

The maintenance thing is a bit misleading. The Ducs need valve checks a bit more often. Other than that, their maintenance is not all that different from a Jap bike.

Reliability? I have yet to have an issue with a Duc, although I have not really held onto one long enough to get out of the warranty period, so my experience might be limited in that regard. That said, the only bike to ever break down and leave me stranded, was a 2007 CBR1000RR.

To me, yeah, the Duc has better brakes and stuff, but does that really matter on the street, or even on the track to a person that is not a top level rider? Probably not. It has always been about the experience, and having something that is not in every garage. If you just want to get out and ride and have fun, get the R1.

if you want something different, something exotic, then get the Duc. One of the deciding things for me is that I prefer Vtwins over Inline 4's. I love the way they make power and put it to the ground. It just seems to be easier to go fast on a twin. And to be honest, the Japanese companies don't seem to make much in the way of high powered Vtwins. There is the SV1000, there were the TL's... RC51 and a couple others, but there is not much today that is considered a real powerful Japanese vtwin. I have a TL-R for the track and love it. I love having power and not having to constantly keep the motor over 9000rpm to do it.

My current Duc has 148hp at the wheel and 82ft/lbs. There is no Japanese vtwin that makes that, especially in a naked bike that weighs 370lbs dry and comes with Brembo monoblocs that can stop a train.

I have been happy with mine. They have all been cool in various ways. Wally joked about "soul", but there is something to that. Call it what you want... character, vibe, soul, attitude, experience... There is something different and cool about riding a Ducati, or an Aprilia, MV Agusta, Bimota... Just as there is in driving a Ferrari or Lambo... It may not be faster than a Nissan GT-R, but it is certainly different.

Japanese cars and bikes tend to have an air of performance, efficiency, precision, etc... But sometimes they also feel cookie-cutter or cold as a result.

Italian cars and bikes tend to make themselves felt more emotionally. They still have the performance, but there is a sense of passion to them, purpose, fun.

I think that they pretty accurately reflect the attitudes of the cultures that design and build them.

The Japanese crank out mass produced bikes that are very efficient streetbikes, that they then turn into race bikes.

Ducati, Aprilia et all, seem to make race bikes that they then turn into streetbikes, and that I think comes through pretty clear when you ride one.

Which one is best? That's up to you. Make up a list of what is most important to you in a bike, and see which one has more checkmarks in its column.

[TarzanMan]

Ignoring price, there isn't a lot to differentiate the two bikes that doesn't come down to preference when looking at typical, normal street use.

People put a lot of stock in the brembo brakes, but I imagine that if you squeeze hard enough either the Duc or R1 will lock the wheel up real good :lol:

Ignoring trips to the supermarket for milk....In from-the-factory stock trim, the Ducati is much more race/track-ready than an R1..... but that has to do with the grade of stock components they put on the bike. The tires alone are 2-3x the cost of the stock R1 tires. Both bikes are overkill on the street, but you'll probably put in a better lap time from Kroger to Burger King on a stock Duc vs a stock R1

I have not ridden the new R1, but if you can believe it, the ergonomics on Ducati are actually worse for street riding/commuting than the R1. To me, there just seem to be more hard edges/countours that body parts hit against than on the R1. I also never got used to not being able to grip all of the Duc tank with your thighs&knees because of the way the tank is scalloped.

Mind you, the above is just a comparison of the 1198 to the R1

Comparing Ducatis in general to japanese bikes will start lots of arguments and name calling, lol.

In my opinion, you get precious little for the premium you pay for a Ducati. Unlike luxury sports cars (Porsches, Corvettes, M5s, etc), your money is not buying you enhanced performance because you can outfit a stock japanese bike with nicer tires, shocks & brakes and there goes your track performance gap. This is the main complaint people usually have about the Ducati brand and their pricing.

[SquireSCA]

I don't agree. People don't complain about the Ducati pricing. You know what they cost, you know what they are about, and if you do not think that it is worth it, you don't buy one. Simple as that.

What Ducati does, is make really cool bikes. The performance is not always better, but it is competitive. But what Japanese bike is compared to the Monster? There isn't one.

What Japanese bike has the feel and handling of the Hypermotard? There are some Jap motards that handle well and are fun and all that, but none of them come with Brembo's and 95Hp and 80ft/lbs, that's for sure.

What Jap bike can compete with the Streetfighter? The new Z1000? Sure, if it lost 80 pounds and gained 25HP maybe. The Bking? Sure, it has the power, but in anything twisty the Streetfighter will spank it easily.

Do the Jap bikes have any retro cafe racer type models, for those that like the retro classic stuff, but with modern construction? I don't think so.

So there are a lot of differences. If you just want to go silly fast on the cheap, get an R1 or Gixxer 750 and call it a day. They are awesome bikes. But if you want something different and cool, then look at what Italy offers, or even a KTM RC8, which the prices for 2010 have been slashed dramatically. The RC8 is now $16,400, right inline with an 1198.

[Mongo]

People that don't want to spend the money complain about it all the time. Not sure why since they're not buying one but they do still complain.

[SquireSCA]

Well, a lot of that is simple ignorance. I used to think the same thing. That Ducs were pretty, but that they broke down a lot, and then spent more time in the shop than on the road, and that you had to spend a couple grand a year on maintenance... getting parts was hard, etc...

I only tried one out because Megan was heading up to NPR and I was looking for a second bike, and I decided to tag along. She talked me into doing a test ride, and I took out the S2R1000. Had a blast, it was a fun bike. Was different than anything that I had ridden before, and at $10,700 out the door, it was $2000 less than the CBR1000RR that I had just bought.

Every Duc that I have owned, was fun and different. I enjoyed having Jap bikes as well, but when I ride a Jap bike, I enjoy the speed and performance, but I don't really find myself enjoying the bike itself, if that makes sense. I mean, they look nice, they go fast, but there is just something lacking on them that makes them feel bland.

I think that the Hyper is one of the most fun bikes on the market. I just wanted more power. My impressions of the Streetfighter so far is that it has almost all the elements that I loved about the Hyper, but almost double the HP, so I also get that adrenaline rush that I enjoy.

There really isn;t anything coming out of Japan to compete with those two bikes, so if you want something like that, you have to pay a little more for it, that's all.

[Todd]

Well, a lot of that is simple ignorance. I used to think the same thing. That Ducs were pretty, but that they broke down a lot, and then spent more time in the shop than on the road, and that you had to spend a couple grand a year on maintenance... getting parts was hard, etc...

dude, you aint owned a duc long enuff to have to worry about maintenance!! :lol:

[SquireSCA]

Well, I did acknowledge that. LOL

But really, Ducati's bikes over the years have just got better and better, both from a performance perspective and reliability.

The only real maintenance difference is that valves need to be checked ever 7500 miles, while the R1 goes twice that. But not all Jap bikes have long valve intervals. Some of the Honda cruisers have 6k-8k valve checks, which is really high on a bike like that. So when you look at the big picture, I don't think that Ducati maintenance is all that different than Jap bike maintenance.

[X-Man]

Getting parts for Duc's can be a bitch, especially any of the newer models, finding parts for Jap bikes is much easier

I love twins, when I can afford a Duc I will get one. Had a RC51, fun bike but it's days are gone.

[SquireSCA]

I was able to get some Hayden Replica plastics for my 848, shipped from Italy, in less than 10 days. Most things can be gotten pretty easily. Not always as easily as Jap parts, I will grant you, but not as hard as most people thing.

[NiceGuysFinishLast]

Just for the record, valve checks on my gs500 are every 4K miles.. BUT.. I can do my own valve checks in an hour or two.. Whereas (And this is what I was told at ATD, so I have no personal experience), it's a lot harder to do the valves on a Duc, and I probably wouldn't be able to do it myself (part of the reason I never forked over the cash for a monster 695 back in the day when I had it)

[SquireSCA]

Well, there are plenty of guys that do it themselves, but you are right, the average person is not doing a valve job on a Ducati, or an R1 for that matter.

[TarzanMan]

People that don't want to spend the money complain about it all the time. Not sure why since they're not buying one but they do still complain
.....And people who do spend the money get their panties in a wad when the flaws in their 'premier product' are pointed out. Not sure why, since they are (presumably) happy with their purchase, but it doesn't stop them from being morose that not everyone thinks that more $$$ automatically = quality.

[SquireSCA]

Actually, I am the first to bitch when my premium bike has some stupid issue with it, trust me. LOL

More money does not always equal more quality or more performance, on that we can agree. That isn't what this is about. Some of us just like something different. As I said, Japan doesn't even make a bike that can compete with something like the Hypermotard, or the Streetfighter. Japan doesn't make a serious V-twin superbike either. Does Japan offer a Multistrada? Well, there is the Versys and the V-Strom. But neither of them pack a 150HP punch, come with Brembo ABS, Ohlins suspension, traction control and a drive mode selector. Japan cannot hold a candle to the KTM Adventure bikes either when it comes to true performance.

How about a retro style cafe racer? Nope, nothing from Japan that has been brought to our shores covers that market. But Ducati and Triumph do.

So for those of us that want that kind of machine, a Jap bike isn't even an option. We need to look to Italy or elsewhere in Europe.

[Mortalis5509]

I think that Japan is looking for straight profit. The SS bike I'm sure less more than any other type bike that comes out of Japan so they are more committed to what makes them money.

[zxsexr]

I think that the new Z1000 will give the Streetfighter a run for its money on the street. ( I am not biased one way or the other. Just stating my opinion. I happen to like all bikes no matter what race, color, nationality or creed it comes from.) :up:

[Snafu484]

Got a clip of one?

I would if I had a way to record... Service manager was pullin the bike back in from ridin it at my local Yami dealer and that sound (to me personally) was just absolute HEAVEN :lol: Asked him wtf did they do to that thing to get it to sound like that with the stock cans and he told me the owner had them gut the things before he ever rode it off the lot lol.

[SquireSCA]

I think that the new Z1000 will give the Streetfighter a run for its money on the street. ( I am not biased one way or the other. Just stating my opinion. I happen to like all bikes no matter what race, color, nationality or creed it comes from.) :up:

Nah. If rider skill is equal, the Streetfighter will kill it. The Z100 claims to make 137hp at the crank, which will be 122hp or so at the wheel. The main thing is weight... The Kawi weighs at least 50lbs more than the Duc, and that will hurt acceleration and handling. The Duc has better suspension, better brakes, weighs a lot less, makes considerably more power and has more torque. With equal riders, the Z1000 really doesn't stand a chance. That said, it is a really nice bike, very fast and sexy as hell. I really like what Kawi did with the new Z1000, and I think it is the best naked to come out of Japan in years.

But the Duc beats it in ever way except price. And when Aprilia releases the new Tuono with the RSV4 motor, it too will spank it. And the MV Agusta Brutale 1078 trounces it.

Naked bikes are more popular in Europe, so they tend to make better naked bikes than Japan. The Italian companies, as well as KTM with the Super Duke and Super Duke R to name a few...

[Mongo]

.....And people who do spend the money get their panties in a wad when the flaws in their 'premier product' are pointed out. Not sure why, since they are (presumably) happy with their purchase, but it doesn't stop them from being morose that not everyone thinks that more $$$ automatically = quality.

When the "flaw" that's being pointed out is merely that it costs more than another product that provides the same basic specs (in this case, power/speed/handling/whatever) then it's annoying because those specs aren't what drives the majority of people to buy Ducatis and cost isn't a flaw. I didn't buy mine for some perceived higher quality, I bought it because I absolutely loved the bike. Nothing more than that, same reason I choose any vehicle really, I like riding and driving and I choose vehicles that make me happy. I don't care about performance in and of itself, I care about the entire experience - which is why one of my most fun vehicles is my Harley dresser and it's also by far the worst performing vehicle I own overall.

[SquireSCA]

When the "flaw" that's being pointed out is merely that it costs more than another product that provides the same basic specs (in this case, power/speed/handling/whatever) then it's annoying because those specs aren't what drives the majority of people to buy Ducatis and cost isn't a flaw. I didn't buy mine for some perceived higher quality, I bought it because I absolutely loved the bike. Nothing more than that, same reason I choose any vehicle really, I like riding and driving and I choose vehicles that make me happy. I don't care about performance in and of itself, I care about the entire experience - which is why one of my most fun vehicles is my Harley dresser and it's also by far the worst performing vehicle I own overall.

I think that the experience is what most people don't get. And you won't get it unless you spend a bit of time on an exotic Vtwin. You look at the specs and think that the Hypermotard is not that fun because it only makes 90HP or so. What the specs don't show you is that you can walk along at 3500rpm, which would be lugging the motor on their inline 4, and you can crack the throttle to 75% and the front end flies up instantly. Instant thrust, no matter what.

Step up to the water-cooled Ducati twins, and it is an entirely new ball game there as well. I know that Dyno charts should be taken with a grain of salt, as more peak HP does not make a bike faster in every case. But you guys that have not ridden a serious vtwin superbike, check it out.

Here are two bikes, my Streetfighter, and I had a 2007 CBR1000RR, that had a slipon, high flow air filter, flapper valve removed, a PCIII and a custom map made by Huey. Top end power, the CBR eaks out a meager 5hp advantage. But look at the power up to that point, and more importantly, look at the torque. And I threw the Air/fuel ratio, to show that my dip in the torque down low is due to a stupid crazy lean spot that Ducati has in there to meet Euro3 emissions standards and I have not yet been able to tune it out. Dynojet is supposed to have an O2 sensor eliminator soon, so hopefully that will be addressed. But you can see how much more torque a Vtwin has down low, and you can draw the imaginary line of where it will be in that flat spot as soon as we get that area to run richer and make more power.

The point is that the way a Vtwin creates and delivers power is very different than an Inline 4, and that torquey, raw, abrupt and sometimes brutal power delivery that you find in a Ducati, an Aprilia, a KTM, etc... Makes for a very fun experience. You don't wait for the motor to spool up to get into your power band. You are always in the power band.

And the old days of "yeah, the Vtwins make a little more power down low but really suffer on top" is for the most part gone. The latest offerings from Ducati have peak power very close to their Japanese rivals. And what Aprilia has done with their new V4 is amazing.

How they look and handle, is all pretty comparable for most people and simply a matter of personal preference. But the deep growl and bark of a Vtwin, the instant thrust from any RPM, that often brutal power delivery, makes for a very fun ride. Then you throw in the upgraded components and the more exotic nature of it, and that is how many of us justify the price premium. It's not just about the looks, or the performance. It's a combination of it all, that defines the overall experience, as Mongo put it.

Or as some others might say, Soul. ;-)

[SquireSCA]

And BTW, the new upload manager absolutely blows. And why does it shrink all the damned pics down? It didn't used to.

[SquireSCA]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/824011/23013122/384106754.jpg

[TLR67]

All that Jibber Jabber Dave and no mention of your TLR.... I am dissapointed in you...

[SquireSCA]

All that Jibber Jabber Dave and no mention of your TLR.... I am dissapointed in you...

LOL! Well, just was a Duc versus Inline 4 thing, so I sorta left it out.

But now that you mention it... I love the TL-R on the track for the same reasons that I love the Duc on the street. Instant power, gobs of torque, no lag, no waiting, just hit the gas and boom, you are off.

[louie3]

and then theres a whole other world of engines.

the daytona 675. :handclap:

[SquireSCA]

True, but they are priced the same as the Jap bikes, so I didn't bring that bike up because it isn't a case of "justifying the price premium" or anything like that.

I rode one, and it really didn't feel any different than a Jap I4. And I got on the thing. It had a little more torque, but it was not night and day different. Very nice bike though.

[louie3]

agreed. i got my 675 after my r6 was stolen. not a HUGE difference, but definetly a difference in the way it feels. its a narrow bike so it feels a lot better to me. i would compare it more with a 749/ 848 as far as power delivery and feel.

[SquireSCA]

Really? I would think that the Ducs had way more torque, and a bit more top end. I never rode the 848 and the 675 back to back though.

[louie3]

ive been on my bro in laws 749 and my 675 back to back and its very close in comparison to me. but the 848 has more torque than both. dont you have the nickey hayden 848?

[SquireSCA]

ive been on my bro in laws 749 and my 675 back to back and its very close in comparison to me. but the 848 has more torque than both. dont you have the nickey hayden 848?

I did. It made 124hp at the wheel, and 65ft/lbs. I just got rid of it recently and picked up a 2010 Streetfighter. Much more power!

[louie3]

man you didnt keep that hayden ed very long. it seems like too nice of a bike to beat on. enjoy that streetfighter!!

[wallypiper]

LOL. Welcome to the world of SquireSCA.

[Ibleedgreen]

LOL, always love the Ferrari comparison. So stupid. Ducs are not Ferraris, if they were they would be $200k. Not $4k more than a Jap bike.

And still slower than a Jap liter. Haha.

J/K, I still want a 1198. The Hyper was a joke to me. Riding it in my avatar pic was fun but to be honest my YZ has more power.

Personally I think my YZ has more soul too. lmao

[SquireSCA]

Chris, the comparison to Ferrari is not always just on price. That's just what most people assume when you invoke that name. But to be honest, look at the price of an 1198S compared to an R1. The Duc will run you almost double OTD. So then consider a Corvette compared to a Ferrari. The Vette will run around $100k, to the Ferrari's $200k. So the price comparison does sorta hold up. Now, is the Ferrari that much faster than the Vette? Nope, the Vette might even be slightly faster.

Same thing with the 1198s versus the R1. There are areas where the Duc clearly wins, and others where the R1 may win. Is it enough to justify the price premium? maybe, maybe not, it depends on whether outright performance is your only criteria. Some guys only care about one bike being allegedly 0.07 second faster around a race track with race slicks and a professional rider onboard. That to them makes it better.

It has more to do with the exotic nature of it than anything else. The styling, the fact that it is Italian, the choice of components and their general approach to things. The nature and mindset of the people building it tends to bleed through into the finished product. japan is all about efficiency, precision, and in some ways conservative. And it shows in their bikes. Clean, efficient, very fast, very precise, but often bland.

Italy seems to embrace passion, fun, etc... And that attitude shows in their work I think, be it cars or bikes.

Everyone has different needs, and all of us value different things and have personal preferences. I prefer Vtwins. I like something exotic that I don't have to look at 12 times on the way to the store. And yeah, I like something that stands out, I admit it.

I loved the Hypermotard, but it does lack that top end rush that I enjoy. But that all ended with bikes like the Monster S4RS, or now the Streetfighter. They have all the low end grunt, and have a strong top end as well, best of both worlds.

And the whole "slower than a literbike" thing is not really realistic IMHO. Ducati seems to do just fine in WSB with their "slower" 1198R. :-)

[SquireSCA]

Another thing with regard to price... I was reading the Cycle World Buyer's Guide today, and I saw that the MSRP of the CBR1000RR is $13.4k, and $14.4k for the ABS version. So comparing MSRP of the base CBR to the base 1198 is only a $3k difference. What do you get for that? Brembo Monoblocs. Braided steel brake lines. Built in lap timer. A few other little odds and ends, including the option of the DDA, which will let you not only record lap times, but also pull up all the data like speed, gear, throttle position, RPM, etc... Let's you plug in your laptop and download the info from the Data Acquisition box and analyze your laps.

Some pretty cool stuff. And for 3 grand, the price difference is not all that huge.

Now the difference, is that nobody will/would pay $13k+ for a Honda CBR. People do pay $16k for Ducs all day long.

Honda had to drop the prices down to 8 grand in order to move product. But if Honda had their way, you would be paying $13k.

[chance]

LOL, always love the Ferrari comparison. So stupid. Ducs are not Ferraris, if they were they would be $200k. Not $4k more than a Jap bike.

And still slower than a Jap liter. Haha.

J/K, I still want a 1198. The Hyper was a joke to me. Riding it in my avatar pic was fun but to be honest my YZ has more power.

Personally I think my YZ has more soul too. lmao

I second the motion on the hyper. I was all excited about a really light bike with an 1100 cc twin.
what a turd it was.

[SquireSCA]

In what way was it a turd? You are the first person I have talked to that rode one and felt that way, so what is your reasoning behind such a statement?

[Mongo]

I have a feeling some people don't quite understand air cooled vs water cooled....

[chance]

In what way was it a turd? You are the first person I have talked to that rode one and felt that way, so what is your reasoning behind such a statement?

I think I was just expecting a lot more power out of the motor. Also, the one I rode had the suspension set way too soft, the front end would dive real hard under moderate braking. Im sure that can be adjusted, but it was still unsettling. One more thing, the pegs are way to low. I was taking a left turn (not even remotely pushing it or anything, just started going from a red light) through an intersection in first gear and I had my foot under the shifter ready to go cause I was going to get on it after the turn. But, my foot somehow clipped the ground, which in turn bumped the bike into neutral mid turn. I just about dumped it right there. I would rather get a true supermoto bike, and mod it with whatever parts I want, and keep up on the maintenance than get he hyper ( and still probably have some cash left over).

I havent ridden a duc superbike or fighter yet, but i bet they have a lot more to offer

[wbeck257]

I have a feeling some people don't quite understand air cooled vs water cooled....

Or 2V and 4V Duc motors...

[SquireSCA]

I think I was just expecting a lot more power out of the motor. Also, the one I rode had the suspension set way too soft, the front end would dive real hard under moderate braking. Im sure that can be adjusted, but it was still unsettling. One more thing, the pegs are way to low. I was taking a left turn (not even remotely pushing it or anything, just started going from a red light) through an intersection in first gear and I had my foot under the shifter ready to go cause I was going to get on it after the turn. But, my foot somehow clipped the ground, which in turn bumped the bike into neutral mid turn. I just about dumped it right there. I would rather get a true supermoto bike, and mod it with whatever parts I want, and keep up on the maintenance than get he hyper ( and still probably have some cash left over).

I havent ridden a duc superbike or fighter yet, but i bet they have a lot more to offer

Ok, so problem #1 was your expectation. You saw 1100 and thought huge power, no? Ducati has two types of motors, as Mongo said. Air cooled and water. The water cooled make lots of power. The benefit to the air cooled motors is great torque, smoothness, and a lot less weight. They are also very "clean" in appearance, making them perfect motors for bikes like the Hyper, or Monsters, Sport Classics, etc... My Streetfighter motor is almost the same exact CC as the Hyper. But in my current state of tune, it is making 165hp or so at the crank(148hp at wheel, plus an assumed 10% drivetrain loss). My Hyper, which also had a slipon, high flow air filter and DP ECU made somewhere in the mid 90's at the crank, and only 82hp at the wheel. Same displacement, yet a huge difference in power, so you cannot always assume that it will be crazy power just because it is 1100cc.

Your second problem was clearly setup. Any bike will handle like shit if the setup was completely wrong. Front end dive being one of them. Having too much sag, or too fast rebound, all sorts of things can upset the ride.

The Hyper was designed for a purpose. The styling is meant to appeal to the Motard crowd, but it is not in fact a motard. But on the flipside, most motards won't do 130mph, or carry a passenger on the interstate at 80mph with ease. It's a niche bike, appealing to a small group of riders, and it has clearly succeeded there. It won't appeal to everyone, as it was never meant to.

It is a decently powerful, great handling bike(once set up properly), and it is a lot of fun. You won't win a race with it, but a good rider will surprise some of the 600 guys up in the Mtns with it. It's just fun. Simple clean design, simple clean torquey motor. And I think that it is elegant in a way. But if it is not to your tastes, that's cool. There are a gazillion other bikes out there to pick from.

[SquireSCA]

I could post up some dyno charts of the Hyper compared to a 600, but I don't have a 600 run, I just have a 750. But even at that, you can see why the Hyper is so much fun on the street. Apart from killer brakes, the deep booming sound and the absolute comfort and legroom that it provides for us taller guys, if you look at the power and the way that it makes power, you can see the appeal.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/824011/10370588/384267703.jpg

From 4500rom to 6000rpm, which is the mid range of the Hyper, you see a huge HP advantage to the Hyper. You have to run much higher revs to get the power on the 750 to match it. And even higher still to get a 600 to match it. A 600 probably has to be spinning well above 8k or even 9k to catch up to the Hyper. And that is fine on open roads or a track. The 600 will absolutely spank the Hyper, no question about it.

But around town, or in really tight and twist stuff where you either draw too much attention running really high revs, or you simply don't have the room to spin up that high, the Hyper is a lot of fun. You have almost 70 ft/lbs of torque from as little as 4000rpm. That makes running around town, or squirting between one turn and the next, an absolute breeze. The Hyper's torque curve is incredibly flat. You have almost max torque at 4k on the tach, and the 750 never gets withing 10ft/lbs even at it's peak at 11k rpm.

Again, I am not saying that one is better or worse, it is just that they are so vastly different that you have to decide what kind of riding you are gonna do, and then pick the right tool for the job. If you want to go to the track, or you like wide open spaces where you can rev the piss out of the motor and make good power, then go for the R6. But if you want a more general purpose bike that you can walk away from the R6 off the line or in traffic and stuff, the Hyper is a formidable weapon. The Hyper is a very fast bike, up to a certain point. If you are staying at 100mph or less, and have a lot of tight turns and then short bursts of acceleration, the Hyper will usually get you there as fast or faster, with less effort and a lot more comfort.

[chance]

My expectations came almost all from the guys at the test ride with comments like "its a light and powerful bike and will do wheelies very easily". so yea, I was going into it with high expectations. My bad, I hadnt done my reading up on the bike at the time and was not familiar with Ducs different motors. But I agree with you completely on the bike not being set up remotely correct. It wasnt the demo guys bike it was the dealers. So im assuming that they simply uncrated it and put it on the showroom floor. Its a shame though, because of the suspension fluffyness, I couldnt get a good feel of what the brembos could do or what the bike would really feel like in the corners

If i had the money, i would have the streetfighter or brutale or most likely a naked rsv4. No i dont need to do 150 mph, but I like the incredible power that a bike like that can produce. My first bike was a 2002 gasgas ec250. Its an incredibly powerful little 2 stroker. Should have over 50 hp with whats been done to it. Lots of low end too. Then I got my z1000 last summer, it dyno'd at 141 at the wheel. I guess I just enjoy a steep learning curve or something. I know i love having a decent amount of power on tap.

I wouldnt even want to do 130 on a true motard. Ive done maybe 80 on my dirtbike and it was scary as shit. did not feel planted at all, just kind of skimming along the road surface.


Ideally, I want a strung out, brutal motard for some hooligan fun and maybe racing on the tighter tracks, and a high hp nekkid bike for everything else

[SquireSCA]

What did you do to the Z1000? Those things usually make around 110hp at the wheel. A 30HP increase over stock is pretty huge. The new one only makes around 120hp at the wheel.

[chance]

What did you do to the Z1000? Those things usually make around 110hp at the wheel. A 30HP increase over stock is pretty huge. The new one only makes around 120hp at the wheel.

I have seen factory 1st gens put down 120-125 bone stock. Mine has a full leo vince exhaust, bmc filter, all emissions stuff removed, and a custom fuel map. Im about to look into seeing if huey can pull the flywheel and machine it down and balance it to make it rev happy and make power sooner. Might put in zx9r cams and springs if I ever find a good deal on them, and up the compression if I ever have the motor out.

Theres a few in the 150s naturally aspirated. And I know of one guy that has his at 190 with a supercharger and another around 200 with a turbo.

new z is supposed to be in the upper 130's. but they havent been out long enough for people to start messing with them

[SquireSCA]

The new Z is 137hp at the crank, if the articles that I read were correct. That should put it in the 120-123hp range at the wheel, which is exactly what Sport Rider got on their dyno:

http://image.sportrider.com/f/32499327/146_1003_01+2010_kawasaki_z1000_dyno_03+.jpg