Lean into curve

[klassified187]

Yesterday I was on my bike in a familiar area and decided I was going to go into a curve a little hotter than normal. Not very smart but hindsight is 20/20. In order to stay in my lane i had to lean the bike more and more as I went thru the curve. Near the end of the curve it started to feel like I was, for lack of a better description, hydroplaning and about to fall over.. Is that normal? I have never been that far into a lean before so it spooked me. But I have seen guys lean much more than i felt I was leaning on that curve. Could it be that my tires are too new (bought in earl Sept) or that they werent hot enough (I had been riding for about half an hour)? Any ideas would be helpful.

[Ga-Bandit]

I'll answer in a generic fashion since you don't mention the time of day, the temperature, road condition (in sun/shade/etc), type of tire you have, etc.

For street use newness doesn't matter but warm tires do - too old of a tire is bad though so always look at a date code when you buy them.

Warm tires + cold road = cold tires most of the time.

On Friday I rode straight from Blue Ridge to T.W.O. down Hwy 60 at a spirited pace and when I got there my Michelin Power Pures were barely warm. When I got to the top of Blood via Wolf Pen Gap they were just as warm.

[Ride4Life]

I debated on a reply simply because of my lack of experience .. but a couple
of things I do know ..

1. Good tires + good road conditions has saved me a few times.
2. The YZF600R can lean pretty far without even getting off the seat.

If you can afford it, get it to a track where you can have some peace of mind
pushing some limits.

[Wheedle]

You did the right thing by continuing to lean further. The fact that it spooked you a bit may have caused you to stiffen up though, and that can contribute to strange feedback from the bike. It is very hard to diagnose the issue you were having without having been there. As a general rule, the looser and more relaxed you are, the happier the bike is. On the street... especially on the street... you should approach and expand your limits very slowly. Its not for everyone, and it can be pricey, but a track day with good instruction will improve both your abilities and your comfort level far faster. If you can swing one or two I would suggest it.

[signguy]

just keep leaning.... when you hear the pegs start to scrape then it's time to stop.... Just remember that today's bikes are way better than we are as riders...

[klassified187]

Thanks for all the feedback I will keep all of it in mind. Yeah it was definitely a cold shady area wit several twists and turns so maybe my tires were cold. When I got my tires put on the mechanic said that new tires have silicone on them and not to push it too hard but that was about 2 months ago.. I have heard other newbies mention that feeling of loosing traction in a really good lean and I guess I was just curious whether or not its supposed to feel like you are about low side. It was cool and fun all at the same time.. I wont try it anymore until I can get signed up for a track day or two. I was told that one instructional track day = about 3 or 4 months of riding experience so I definitely see the value.

[Ringo®]

If it's the first time you leaned over far enough to use that particular area of the tire, it could be a little slick

[speed-kills]

Also possible you just felt the change in the profile of the tire. Some tires lean quick at first and slow as you get closer to the edge and others start slow and turn in faster as you get closer to the edge

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[ramm]

Going to agree on the cold tires.

edit: also, new tires break in at about ~50 miles now, they do not put the coatings on the tires that they used to. They stopped doing that about 3 years ago.

[wera44]

That was your ass puckering that you felt not the tires.

[mackja]

It is a good habit to flick into your turns late, late apex will require less lean. Remember if you start into a turn to early you will come out wide every time, and the only way to stay in your lane is to keep leaning, not a good thing to do on the street.

[wera44]

It is a good habit to flick into your turns late, late apex will require less lean. Remember if you start into a turn to early you will come out wide every time,

How exactly did you come up with this information. I can apex early and keep from running wide with more lean angle and throttle but maybe you know something I dont?

[mackja]

That is right, so the only way to reduce lean is to late apex, because lane width on the street is allot less than on the track, it just makes sense to flick in late so you don't go wide and have to lean the bike overso much. I am looking at this from a safty stand point. I think we are saying the same thing, I am suggesting a way to ride the bike that will reduce the chance of an collision. I use Keith Codes 2 step method and it works.

[wera44]

Wouldnt speed be the determining factor on how much lean angle you need to get through a corner, not where your turn in point is? I can get through a coner almost straight up and down if Im traveling slow enough no matter where my turn in point is. Its when you add speed that you need lean angle.

[wallypiper]

One of Codes teachings is that you minimize lean angle (always a good thing since lean angle reduces traction) by quickly "flicking" the bike to the correct lean angle for the line you plan to take through the turn. According to the Keith, when you go slowly from straight up to max lean and slowly back up, that results in more lean angle at the apex. I'm sure many people will have different opinions but "flicking" your bike to the lean angle you intend to hold through the turn is one of the things he teaches. Try it sometime.

[mackja]

Their are several things that determine the amount of lean and speed on corner exit. An early entry point and throttle will cause you to have to lean the bike more on exit, and reduce exit speed and grip, late entry will cause you to enter a little slower, but will need less lean on exit and give you the fastest exit speed and maximum grip. Here is a link to what I am talking about.

http://www.lateralg.org/tips/apex1.htm

This shows how entry point determines exit point, speed, and lean angle.

wallypiper, you hit the nail on the head, thanks.

[Wheedle]

On the street a later apex allows you to see through and past the corner better... especially blind corners.

[wera44]

I guess I should read more. In race situation Its different your line is determined by your position in the race and who your racing with. I dont ride the street much so maybe my input isnt the greatest for this forum or topic.

[Wheedle]

I guess I should read more. In race situation Its different your line is determined by your position in the race and who your racing with. I dont ride the street much so maybe my input isnt the greatest for this forum or topic.

Your input is not totally irrevelant... the bike control skills and techniques still apply. You understand and can explain how your line at any one point effects the rest of the corner, how to deal with that, how to adjust for different conditions... :up:

[wera44]

I guess thats true. What bike Im on also determines how I take a corner. If im riding a bigger 600cc machine I take a corner different than on my motard. Do you guys ever do a board type trackday?

[mackja]

I guess thats true. What bike Im on also determines how I take a corner. If im riding a bigger 600cc machine I take a corner different than on my motard. Do you guys ever do a board type trackday?

I have just been doing track days for a year. Road with STT at Barber 6 events, 12 days, while it is a total blast and I can't wait for next year, I have found my progress was good at first, but has slowed down now. I managed to turn a 1:58 the last Saturday of the year. Barber is a technical track so I tend to follow the race line, work on my reference points for braking and turn in. I have been working on one section of the track each day. Riding the xb12r I think is a good choice because it will require me to carry more corner entry speed to low may lap times which should help me become a better rider. I need to work on different lines next year, because like you say it depends on who you are racing with and where you are on the track. I have allot of work to do, my goal is to get down to a 1:50 at Barber on the xb next year. So any insight you might have would be helpful.

[heathun]

On the street a late entry allows you greater visibilty than an early entry. As far as the less lean angle required, well that depends on alot of variables. If you carry the same corner speed then less lean angle isn't really true. The biggest plus to late entry and quick pitch in is less time spent at full lean and being able to get back in the gas quicker to drive out at exit.

[mackja]

On the street a late entry allows you greater visibilty than an early entry. As far as the less lean angle required, well that depends on alot of variables. If you carry the same corner speed then less lean angle isn't really true. The biggest plus to late entry and quick pitch in is less time spent at full lean and being able to get back in the gas quicker to drive out at exit.

The lean angle will have to increase if on a early entry turn you are pushed out wide, you will have to lean more the get through the turn. The benefits of late entry are numerous, no doubt it is something all riders should practice and use.

[heathun]

The lean angle will have to increase if on a early entry turn you are pushed out wide, you will have to lean more the get through the turn.

I think thats obvious if the same corner speed and entry is used. But if you change any number of things it's no longer applicable I.E entry point, entry speed, amount of throttle applied at apex or how much body steering is being used.

It's a real broad area when discussing cornering and so many different approaches. Street lines from a safety stand point are alot different than race lines and should be for a number of reasons.

[wera44]

I usually hit a TD or 2 in the off season. I used to hate Barber but now its one of my favorite tracks. Work on one corner at a time until you get good through it then move to the next. Before you know it you will be stringing corners together and on your way to faster lap times. I find it better when I break it down one turn at a time. Use reference points if you find yourself riding seat of the pants, stop. Keep moving your braking points into the corner until you blow that corner then move it out a bit :) I know it sounds simple/lame but it works.

[mackja]

I love Barber, and figure if I can get fast there my learning curve at other tracks will be quick. I have become pretty smooth and have good lines (My instructors say I do) had a chance to have a buddy of mine video me last month on the first session after lunch, not my fastest for sure, but it revealed allot. The only turn I was out of line on was 7 (right turn before the kink and museum turn) and 15, both I hit early. Seeing this on video I was able to make adjustments quick. I changed my front brakes from the stock 6-piston caliper to the 8-piston, and Dunlopro HH pads, and I had to learn my braking points all over again, I have a bunch of brake now. I am a little nervous about going in hot and deep into corners because I don't want to blow the turn, but eventually I will have to deal with it. In Nov of 09(2nd track day) the front washed out on me in turn five, the next session I came in hot (and my head was screwed up) and blew the turn and went into the grass. Turn 5 is really the one turn that is hard to be consistent.

[klassified187]

You guys are wayyy over my head now lol.. I think I need to watch some video on the matter. I understand "flicking" in late and all the benefits but I didnt know there were so many different cornering techniques. I got some reading to do I see. Thanks for the links thats a start...

[Soupskin]

Been watching "Twist of the Wrist II," seems informative.

[wera44]

Save your money on books and videos and spend it on real track experiences.

Now that I think about it its a lot like sex. You could read about it, you could watch videos about, hell I could tell you about it but wouldnt you rather just experience it for yourself and come up with your own techniques that work for you.

[BiggsRR07]

You did the right thing by continuing to lean further. The fact that it spooked you a bit may have caused you to stiffen up though, and that can contribute to strange feedback from the bike. It is very hard to diagnose the issue you were having without having been there. As a general rule, the looser and more relaxed you are, the happier the bike is. On the street... especially on the street... you should approach and expand your limits very slowly. Its not for everyone, and it can be pricey, but a track day with good instruction will improve both your abilities and your comfort level far faster. If you can swing one or two I would suggest it.
I agree with this completely. I bought my first bike 3 years ago and learned to ride on the street and up in the mountains and being a novice (somewhat still am) I found that I would be very stiff going in corners just being nervous. Im talking kung fu grip on the clip ons while going thru the corners to the point where my hands were going numb every 15-20 minutes and I never even realized I was doing it. Learning to ride these machines is a slow process and it takes a while to become better so just ride your own pace and seek the help of others. Thats how I learned. Had so many great teachers and all were those who I've met on this very same forum.

just keep leaning.... when you hear the pegs start to scrape then it's time to stop.... Just remember that today's bikes are way better than we are as riders...

Didn't scrape a ped until my 4th track day at tally this year. Scared the crap outa me because I thought that I was already leaning the bike over as far as it could go which proves signguy's point that these bikes are better that we are as riders. You will learn a world of info from doing a trackday. There is a much bigger margin for error than riding on the street and much easier to concentrate without worrying about whats coming around the next corner or how's the road condition in that next blind curve of if anythings gonna run out of the woods at any time.

[ramm]

Save your money on books and videos and spend it on real track experiences.

Now that I think about it its a lot like sex. You could read about it, you could watch videos about, hell I could tell you about it but wouldnt you rather just experience it for yourself and come up with your own techniques that work for you.

Epic.

[Lazarus]

Epic.

You finally got a new bike eh? 07 R6 good for track.

[ramm]

You finally got a new bike eh? 07 R6 good for track.

That's the plan. Looking to go in March. Just gotta find a ride. :up:

[Lazarus]

That's the plan. Looking to go in March. Just gotta find a ride. :up:

Where and with who?

[ramm]

X-act. Tally

[klassified187]

What track would you recommend for a first track day for a noob?

[ramm]

What track would you recommend for a first track day for a noob?

Tally or Jennings. :D

[TroyBoy30]

what he said

[dzone]

What track would you recommend for a first track day for a noob?

Any track, the important thing is that you do a track day. You will be better for it. Too many riders tend to agonize and overthink their first trackday, Find a track, find a track day org that has a novice program and sign up.
you will have 45 people that have never even been to a track day giving you conflicting information.
Jenning, Tally, Barber, Road A... Novices do them all as their first track day.
Just do it, you will never regret it.

[klassified187]

Here's the problem for me with doing a track day...

1) I dont know all the details to prep my bike (Remove mirrors, tape blinkers and headlight, etc)
2) I dont know how i will get my bike to the track
3) I dont own tire warmers

Is there a "Track Days for Dummies" book or something? Also I dont even know what to expect for my first track day. I hope they just dont put you on the track and say "Have at it hoss".

[chkaotic]

Here's the problem for me with doing a track day...

1) I dont know all the details to prep my bike (Remove mirrors, tape blinkers and headlight, etc)
2) I dont know how i will get my bike to the track
3) I dont own tire warmers

Is there a "Track Days for Dummies" book or something? Also I dont even know what to expect for my first track day. I hope they just dont put you on the track and say "Have at it hoss".

Regarding what you need to do to prep your bike, there are several things that are universal, and some that depend on the track, trackday organizer, and/or the group you will be riding in. Since you're new, and would be in the novice/beginner group, there's usually less you have to do. Here's a list of what I can think of off the top of my head (please chime in if I've missed something, as I havent done a "novice" group for awhile)

- Remove mirrors
- Tape up headlight (I recommend using the blue or green painters tape, and also unplugging your headlight so it doesnt bake the tape on)
- Tape up taillight (same as above, painters tape)
- Remove or tape up turn signals
- Remove license plate and/or mounts for licence plate

Most novice groups I remember don't require swapping out antifreeze, however check with the trackday organizer to be sure.. dont wanna get all the way there and find out you need to swap it out for water

Some trackdays only require safety wire in intermediate and novice, but again.. check.. dont tihnk this will be an issue tho (if anything, it'd be a hose clamp on your oil filter)

I have been through some trackdays where the novice group and up are required to either remove the kickstand, or zip-tie it in the upright position.. this was in Oklahoma tho so I dont think anyone around here does it




Regarding tire warmers, dont worry about them. They are *NOT* needed for a trackday.. technically they are not needed at all, they are for an added effect. You will be learning the track and learning to ride on it, so going as fast as you can shouldn't be one of your concerns at all, anyhow.

As far as transporting the bike there.. I used to rent the 6x10 UHaul trailers before I got my own.. or borrow a buddy's truck.. you can also check with other people on the board that are going to see if they have any trailor/truckbed space.. but lets face it, any true trackday rider owns their own truck, right? hehe

[Derrick]

1.Check web site for each org. requirements. Novice prep can easily be done by anyone in no time at all.
2.ride share or rent a trailer from u-haul
3.As long as you have fairly new hypersport tires, those will work fine and no tire warmers are required.

[klassified187]

Cool thanks for the info.. I will look into doing a track day when it warms up again. More than likely I am going to go to Road Atlanta for my first one.

[chkaotic]

Cool thanks for the info.. I will look into doing a track day when it warms up again. More than likely I am going to go to Road Atlanta for my first one.

Love that track.. As said before, any track will work as a first track.. however IMHO I still think Jennings or Tally would be the prime ones for a few reasons

- No big elevation changes, so all you worry about is left/right instead of up/down
- No blind corners to freak you out when you're not used to them
- Jennings has good turn-in/apex/turn-out markers (I use the term good as in.. good for a noob.. i know not everyone uses them hehe)

Having said that, you can still do Road A as your first trackday and be just fine.. just some food for thought

[mackja]

I would do Tally or Jennings before I would do road Atlanta, just because of the speed and technical aspects of the track. Barber would be a good track also, it is technical, but top speed for a novice might be 110-120. You would learn allot at Barber for sure and it is the best facility in the southeast, bar none.

[chkaotic]

I would do Tally or Jennings before I would do road Atlanta, just because of the speed and technical aspects of the track. Barber would be a good track also, it is technical, but top speed for a novice might be 110-120. You would learn allot at Barber for sure and it is the best facility in the southeast, bar none.

Yeah, something about the back straight at Road A going into 9 and 10a for a noob just doesnt sound kosher.. but to each his own i spose

[mackja]

Yeah, that is exactly why I have not done RA yet myself. The xb12r is a great track bike, but with me on it I don't think I could get much over 135mph maybe 140 mph on a good day going down hill with the wind at my back lol. I keep imagining getting blown away by a bunch of liter bikes on the back straight, that seems to be a little unnerving.

[chkaotic]

Yeah, that is exactly why I have not done RA yet myself. The xb12r is a great track bike, but with me on it I don't think I could get much over 135mph maybe 140 mph on a good day going down hill with the wind at my back lol. I keep imagining getting blown away by a bunch of liter bikes on the back straight, that seems to be a little unnerving.

I would suggest trying to re-gear.. but I dunno how hard it is to do on a belt drive..

[mackja]

Regearing is next to impossible on the belt drive bikes. I can change the primary chain gearing but that would only increase torque and lower top speed. Only choice would be to convert over to chain drive which is very expensive to do. I will
just wait untill I put the 1125r on the track, it will bust 160 mph all day long. That will happen when I can afford the new Buell 1190rs, might be a while!

[ramm]

Regearing is next to impossible on the belt drive bikes. I can change the primary chain gearing but that would only increase torque and lower top speed. Only choice would be to convert over to chain drive which is very expensive to do. I will
just wait untill I put the 1125r on the track, it will bust 160 mph all day long. That will happen when I can afford the new Buell 1190rs, might be a while!

Yeah I was going to suggest the chain conversion but honestly, like you said, not really worth the money if you have an 1125r :up:

[mackja]

I thought about converting to chain, bu the kit is 1795.00, plus sprokets and chains, to buy 5 or 6 sprokets and chains, along with the maintenance of those componients it is just not woth it. The Belt is lighter, cleaner, no maintenance, so I will just go a little slower and live with it.

[wallypiper]

Yeah, that is exactly why I have not done RA yet myself. The xb12r is a great track bike, but with me on it I don't think I could get much over 135mph maybe 140 mph on a good day going down hill with the wind at my back lol. I keep imagining getting blown away by a bunch of liter bikes on the back straight, that seems to be a little unnerving.

LOL. It is. I did RA on a naked SV in the NESBA intermediate group. Dzone managed to avoid running over me on the back straight. I even talked to the CR's about it after the first session because I was getting passed at such a huge difference i speed and they said "hold your line, let'em pass, don't worry about it". So I did and I didn't. It was fun. RA is certainly a challenge for a first timer but in the novice group, most people will be in the same boat as you and after your first session, which will get eaten up just learning the track, it'd be a blast.

[klassified187]

I have several friends who started out on RA and they said it isnt bad in the Novice group. Plus I have a better chance of getting my bike to RA than anywhere else...

[mackja]

I attended 12 track days at Barber this year, and it is always great every time I go, actually Barber is the only track I have been to. I can't imagine any place any better. Think I will branch out next year, and do
RA, CMP and Nashville, maybe Talley and Jennings