Brake shudder/Head Shake

[BiggsRR07]

I tried searching and coundn't find a topic on it but I am currently experienceing "brake shudder" when braking. Doesn't happen all the time but more times than often and its under normal braking conditions and once a while under hard braking. When I apply the brakes, the entire front end starts shaking real bad almost as if I'm rapidly applying and releasing the brakes. Its happened before on two of my other 3 bikes and I don't know whats the issue. My bike is fairly new. I just hit 1000 miles on Sunday and its been happening since about 200-300 miles. I'm thinking suspension adjustment? I have speigler lines, carbone lorraine pads and race fluid. Contributing factors? Is it possible for the rotors to be warped so soon?

[Georgiacbr]

Sounds like a caliper issue to me based on your
Miles have the stealership check and advise.

[kylehoffman05]

I had a similar issue with my bike. It wasn't as bad as you make yours sound, more like just a slight chatter under braking or while going over small bumps at low speed. Everything I found pointed me to the steering head needing to be tightened, so I went to MarMo and had them snug it up for me. So far, so good. I bought my bike brand new as well and mine started this a bit later than yours did, right around the 1100-1200 mile point.

[Ga-Bandit]

I don't want to sound mean BUT

WHAT THE HELL MAN?

TAKE THE BIKE BACK AND GET IT FIXED - NOW

But, if it's happened on your last 3 bikes...rider error?

Don't play with brakes - get it checked out.

[BiggsRR07]

I had a similar issue with my bike. It wasn't as bad as you make yours sound, more like just a slight chatter under braking or while going over small bumps at low speed. Everything I found pointed me to the steering head needing to be tightened, so I went to MarMo and had them snug it up for me. So far, so good. I bought my bike brand new as well and mine started this a bit later than yours did, right around the 1100-1200 mile point.

Thats what I thought too. I put the bike up on the front stand (triple tree) and pulled and pushed and twisted to see if it moved and it didn't so it doesn't appear to be any loose bearings. I'll take it to MarMo either this weekend or next week to have it checked. I need my suspension tuned anyway. If that doesn't help I'll take it to the dealer.

[BiggsRR07]

rider error?



Maybe rider error. I had the suspension tuned on my 07 CBR when I took it to RA and it felt perfect. Never had that issue. I did get it on my 08CBR1k and 09 CBR600 but I set the suspension myself. That may be my problem. That's why I'm taking it to Marmo.

[ramm]

Warped rotors.

Take it back now.

[BiggsRR07]

Warped rotors.

Take it back now.

thats what I'm afraid of.

[Ga-Bandit]

more than likely burnt pads I would guess but my bike goes to MarMo too whenever there's work to be done.

[BiggsRR07]

You think I would have burnt pads already with only 500-600 miles of use?

[wbeck257]

steering head, or bad job bedding in the pads.
highly doubt you warped the rotors.

[BiggsRR07]

steering head, or bad job bedding in the pads.
highly doubt you warped the rotors.

How would you properly bed the pads? If it was something done wrong bedding the pads, would buying new pads and following the right procedure to bed them fix the issue

[ramm]

steering head, or bad job bedding in the pads.
highly doubt you warped the rotors.

I don't think HE warped them. I just thing they came warped.

[Huey130]

I would believed "bent" before I believed warped. There's a way to check for either. If they're warped / bent, theyre warped / bent.

But: To bed pads in you get them to temperature by constantly coming to near stops. I personally don't like coming to complete stops.
Get them hot, hot and then let them cool completely. You're transfering pad material to the rotor.
Some pads materials (carbon based ones) like you to start with clean rotors so you have to bead blast them or use a hone to get the old pad material off it.

[Huey130]

Id like to see those CL pads. You may of glazed them up somehow. That's about the only thing I could think that would happen that soon. Unless there was an installation error and you've been dragging your brakes this whole time....

[ramm]

I would believed "bent" before I believed warped. There's a way to check for either. If they're warped / bent, theyre warped / bent.



I thought that was the same thing. bent/warped?

[Huey130]

I thought that was the same thing. bent/warped? If I tie down a bike wrong or crash it I'd say I bent it. If I over heated it with a brake pad I'd say I warped it.... Semantics I guess.

[BiggsRR07]

Id like to see those CL pads. You may of glazed them up somehow. That's about the only thing I could think that would happen that soon. Unless there was an installation error and you've been dragging your brakes this whole time....
The installation was pretty straightforward. Brembo's are actually easier to replace that regular brakes from my experience. Even on my g35 I couldn't beileve how easy and fast it was to replace the pads, I couldn't understand for the life of me why the stealership charged $600. I would like to bring my bike down to you Huey to take a look at it. I want my suspension setup but would love your input on whats going on with my brakes.

[ramm]

If I tie down a bike wrong or crash it I'd say I bent it. If I over heated it with a brake pad I'd say I warped it.... Semantics I guess.

Got ya :up:

[Georgiacbr]

The installation was pretty straightforward. Brembo's are actually easier to replace that regular brakes from my experience. Even on my g35 I couldn't beileve how easy and fast it was to replace the pads, I couldn't understand for the life of me why the stealership charged $600. I would like to bring my bike down to you Huey to take a look at it. I want my suspension setup but would love your input on whats going on with my brakes.

Heuy would figure it out i'm willing to bet tho it's a caliper issue i've had issues with mine before from truck's to bikes.

[BiggsRR07]

Heuy would figure it out i'm willing to bet tho it's a caliper issue i've had issues with mine before from truck's to bikes.

Ok we got Georgiacbr saying its a caliper issue. Any other takers? Lets see who can guess the problem. Winner gets bragging rights. I'm gonna try and bring it in to Huey sometime next week.

[Georgiacbr]

Ok we got Georgiacbr saying its a caliper issue. Any other takers? Lets see who can guess the problem. Winner gets bragging rights. I'm gonna try and bring it in to Huey sometime next week.

Good luck with it tho hope you figure it out but Huey is a good source to fix it . Side note Pay's Huey to say what I stated (LOL).

[SlimDizzleATL]

Eric's not a trained mechanic....but he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :)

[Ga-Bandit]

Ok we got Georgiacbr saying its a caliper issue. Any other takers? Lets see who can guess the problem. Winner gets bragging rights. I'm gonna try and bring it in to Huey sometime next week.

Pads are glazed.

[Georgiacbr]

Eric's not a trained mechanic....but he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :)

I did LOL naw dude I stay at Hampton's .

[The Lazy Destroyer]

I had a problem with heavy/rapid front end shake (only under braking) that got resolved with new wheel bearings, but I don't think it sounds like your problem, as mine got worse the harder I was on the brakes. I was almost confident it was warped rotors but they ended up checking out fine.

[BiggsRR07]

I had a problem with heavy/rapid front end shake (only under braking) that got resolved with new wheel bearings, but I don't think it sounds like your problem, as mine got worse the harder I was on the brakes. I was almost confident it was warped rotors but they ended up checking out fine.

Mine does that too! The longer I hold the brakes the worse it gets. I have to release the lever and apply it again to get it to stop. Sometimes it will stop and sometimes it will start again as soon as I get back on the brakes. What would cause the bearings to go bad? I don't do wheelies or stoppies so no abuse to the front wheel

[wallypiper]

Wheel bearings should not be bad on a 2011 bike, even if you did a lot of wheelies. A lot of brand new bikes probably leave the showroom with poorly adjusted stem bearings, though.

[BiggsRR07]

So it could also be affected by how well they put together the bike at the dealership? Mine came straight from the crate. They built it the day I bought it and delivered it the next day. I think I may give them a call.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t252/crazyn6/2011-04-29_13-32-15_248.jpg

[BiggsRR07]

Problem solved. It was in fact the CL pads. They were glazed. wbeck257 got it right first and Huey hit it on the head also.
steering head, or bad job bedding in the pads.
highly doubt you warped the rotors.
I took off the rotors and scuffed them with some sand paper and hosed them down with some brake disc cleaner. I let them dry and reinstalled the rotors and pads. I then proceeded to bed them in according to Huey's recommended method. They felt fine at first but then by the time I got home it started to shudder again when I got below 10 mph which was a big improvement from before. I then went to eliminate all the variables and switched back to the regular OEM pads. Once I put those back on the shudder completely disappeared 100%. No matter how much I tried to recreate it, it came to a complete and smooth stop every time from varying speeds. My next concern is how do I properly bed in the pads? They are brand new and I would like to use them. I like the extra added bite I get from these pads. I've tried to bed them in properly but it just doesn't seem to be working for me. Here are the pads that I have:
http://www.cl-brakes.com/en/products/bikes/range/ They're the C59

[Derrick]

Could it be you're not getting enough heat in them due to them being race pads?

[BiggsRR07]

It could be. I don't know if they have to maintain a consistent temperature to not create a shudder

[BiggsRR07]

Got my suspension tuned yesterday by Huey at Marmo and it feels perfect. Way much better than before and I already took care of the braking problem.
Gotta get some seat time to see if it needs any tweaking but for now it feels great. Huey is like an encyclopedia. When he got to talking about the right
way to setup a suspension properly I was in awe. He know's his sh*t. I was super impressed and he did a great job in a little amount of time. Thanks again
Heuy and I'll definitely be back. Gonna get new ebc pads off of Huey's recommendation and try them out. CAN'T WAIT!

[RogueElement]

Got my suspension tuned yesterday by Huey at Marmo and it feels perfect. Way much better than before and I already took care of the braking problem.
Gotta get some seat time to see if it needs any tweaking but for now it feels great. Huey is like an encyclopedia. When he got to talking about the right
way to setup a suspension properly I was in awe. He know's his sh*t. I was super impressed and he did a great job in a little amount of time. Thanks again
Heuy and I'll definitely be back. Gonna get new ebc pads off of Huey's recommendation and try them out. CAN'T WAIT!

If they're the EBC Sintered HH pads, you'll fall in love. That's all I'm running anymore.

[BiggsRR07]

I hope so. They are ordering it for me. Should be there by today.

[Georgiacbr]

If they're the EBC Sintered HH pads, you'll fall in love. That's all I'm running anymore.

Yea been running mine 2 years now no issues.

[Ga-Bandit]

Ok we got Georgiacbr saying its a caliper issue. Any other takers? Lets see who can guess the problem. Winner gets bragging rights. I'm gonna try and bring it in to Huey sometime next week.


Pads are glazed.


Problem solved. It was in fact the CL pads. They were glazed. wbeck257 got it right first and Huey hit it on the head also.


more than likely burnt pads I would guess but my bike goes to MarMo too whenever there's work to be done.

ummmmmmmmm...

[BiggsRR07]

Your right. I completely overlooked that. CORRECTION! Ga-Bandit was in fact the first person to sucessfully diagnose my problem. To him goes all the spoils:bowdown::music2:

[Georgiacbr]

Your right. I completely overlooked that. CORRECTION! Ga-Bandit was in fact the first person to sucessfully diagnose my problem. To him goes all the spoils:bowdown::music2:

Braking is one of those areas a lot of parts can cause the same effects. It's good yours is fixed tho i had to replace my Caliper on my truck because it was leaking fluid from the pad change.

[BiggsRR07]

I'm just glad it was something as simple as putting the stock pads back on and not a nightmare that would keep my bike at the dealership for weeks. I picked up my new ebc's from Huey yesterday and I'm gonna install them this morning and bed them in properly and see how they feel. I hope I have no more issues because I'm going to Barber next month and I would hate to miss it

[Brad906]

I'm just glad it was something as simple as putting the stock pads back on and not a nightmare that would keep my bike at the dealership for weeks. I picked up my new ebc's from Huey yesterday and I'm gonna install them this morning and bed them in properly and see how they feel. I hope I have no more issues because I'm going to Barber next month and I would hate to miss itAs I'm sure you know, bed-in is critical on certain pads. EBC for one. I haven't used them in years so that could have changed. I like that Vesrah and DP are pretty much put them in and go ride!

[BiggsRR07]

Day 2 of bedding in my pads. They feel great. I'm taking it easy and I'm getting absolutely 0 head shake. 45mph braking without coming to complete stops and increasing speed to 65mph and braking without coming to complete stops but gradually increasing pressure on the lever. I'm loving these EBC pads so far however, I'm still having an issue with my back wheel coming off the ground. I can feel it lift up a few inches and it starts at about maybe 25mph and it will stay there until I release the brakes. I know why it was doing it before and it was because my suspension was all jacked up but Huey took care of that for me and gave me a great baseline tune. But its still happening. I will say that after the suspension tune by Huey, when it comes up it almost feels natural and fluently in movement almost as if someone is gracefully lifting the back end up for me while I'm on the bike and I'm sure its because my suspension is set properly. Hopefully its nothing major and I can adjust/fix it to where I'm more comfortable. I once was told that you'll know your braking hard enough when your back wheel starts to come up. More tweaking to follow

[RogueElement]

Yeah, know where that point is. Because once you get there, theres no braking harder. :lol:

[BiggsRR07]

Ok, I don't know what else to do. Day 4 and the pads are working great. Thats a done deal. My issue now is the back wheel is consistently coming off the ground. Sometimes it comes straight up, sometimes its on an angle which is a bit scary when you feel the bike twist left/right while riding the front wheel. Now I'm braking from 50-60 mph and its happening 9 out of 10 times. No my biggest fear is that when I'm at Barber I'll be coming into a turn, hit the brakes and do a front flip. I've never had this issue before so I'm at a loss as to how to troubleshoot it. Here is as much info as I can think of to anyone that maybe able to chime in:
-I'm 220lbs
-2011 GSX-R 750 with stock showa suspension (set up for my weight by Huey at Marmo)
-Tires are Michelin Power One's Commercial version with 1k street miles on them. Front psi is 30 rear is 30
-Brake lines switched to Spiegler superbike lines (3 line race setup)
-EBC standard compound brake pads
-Stomp Grip tank pads
-Motul rf600 brake fluid
-Stock master cyclinder

Thats all I can think of. Now it could be that maybe at a track at higher speeds the back won't come up, I don't know. I've tried applying a bit of rear brake while braking. Bad idea. The back end just starts skipping pretty bad, I'm assuming because all the weight is being transferred up front. I attached a zip tie to the front fork leg to show the amount of travel I'm getting while braking:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t252/crazyn6/IMG_3656.jpg

Huey explained to me that you want it to almost bottom out otherwise its more apt to lift the back wheel off the ground because it will pivot on the front. Am I overreacting? Is this normal/expected? I hope I'm just over thinking this but as stated before I've never had this problem before and its freaking me out. Any help/ideas/suggestions will be appreciated. I'll bring it back to Marmo for more tweaking if necessary. If its something I'm doing wrong I would like to know. Thanks in advance.

[Brad906]

Sounds like you are trying to brake too hard and unnaturally. Like from 50 to 0, something you never do on track or normal street riding. Maybe riding too far forward, weight on the front. At 220#'s I would say your springs are too light. I would think 1.05 springs would be needed and doubt the stockers are close to that. Have you determined spring rate or just "had it set for your weight" with preload? Shock settings also affect (front) braking characteristics, could be off there.*******edit..I just looked at Racetechs charts and it seems the 06-09's used 1.0 springs so they should be close...Cant remember how progressive(or not) stock springs are though.

[BiggsRR07]

Now I'm not coming to complete stops partially from bedding in new pads and second is because I know thats more likely to cause the rear wheel to come up. I just had the suspension set to my weight by Huey. Preload, compression and rebound have all been adjusted to suit my weight. A little more background info, I'm preparing my bike for Barber which will be trackday #5 for me. Hard braking is something that I've gotten used to and pretty good at. The worst I've felt the back wheel move around is when I downshifted into a turn and the rev's were too high so the rear wheel started skipping. The only reason this is an issue for me is because when the rear wheel is coming up I can feel it steadily getting higher and higher. Someone suggested that I was maybe putting all my weight in my wrists. I'm positioning myself as far back as I can so that I keep my weight at the rear of the bike. Any thoughts?

[Todd]

sounds like the preload could be too much, bottoming out the front springs, levering the bike up over the front.

[BiggsRR07]

Thanks Todd I'll bring that up to Huey when I bring it back in

[Todd]

Thanks Todd I'll bring that up to Huey when I bring it back in
he'll probably tell ya i dont know wtf im talking about. :lol: I'm by no means a suspension person, i only know the basics, but i do know what i just described above WILL cause the issue youre having, and i only know that from personal experience. :up:

[Brad906]

sounds like the preload could be too much, bottoming out the front springs, levering the bike up over the front.Thats what I've always been told. Shock preload high, spring too stiff(doubt it stock) or rebound too fast.

Since you are pretty confident that the suspension is "right", that leaves the problem with you. Not having a clue how you ride or how fast you go, it just sounds to me that you are trying too hard.(i dont care what you are riding, if you are getting the rear off the ground, you are squeezin' like a mofo or the bike is f'd) Remember the old saying "brakes only slow you down." Super hard braking is best saved for making a pass, not decreasing lap times. On the gas is where time is made!

[Ga-Bandit]

okay, I don't normally do this, but, I will make a sacrifice and volunteer to ride my dream bike...ummm.. your GSX-R750 as a courtesy just for you, in order to provide you with a second opinion.

[BiggsRR07]

Thats what I've always been told. Shock preload high, spring too stiff(doubt it stock) or rebound too fast.

Since you are pretty confident that the suspension is "right", that leaves the problem with you. Not having a clue how you ride or how fast you go, it just sounds to me that you are trying too hard.(i dont care what you are riding, if you are getting the rear off the ground, you are squeezin' like a mofo or the bike is f'd) Remember the old saying "brakes only slow you down." Super hard braking is best saved for making a pass, not decreasing lap times. On the gas is where time is made!
I could be squeezing too hard maybe. Passing before a turn is where I do my "super hard braking" as I've done it a good amount of times before I just never had this happen. I'm hoping that its something as simple as my speed? (Braking hard from 50-60 mph vs 100-120 mph would be more likely to have the rear come up) I've never had this happen to me before while on the track or at all especially without trying. The last two bikes I had on the track was an 07 and 09 CBR600, the 07 had a professional suspension tune and the 09 didn't, but back wheel never came up like this.

[BiggsRR07]

okay, I don't normally do this, but, I will make a sacrifice and volunteer to ride my dream bike...ummm.. your GSX-R750 as a courtesy just for you, in order to provide you with a second opinion.

If you can help, I can sure use your wisdom and experience. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Ga-Bandit]

If you can help, I can sure use your wisdom and experience. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

DRAT!!!! You must know I do not ride other peoples bikes.

It would be helpful though to have someone watch you so shoot me a PM when you're free. We're riding Thursday.

[BiggsRR07]

Would I benefit from changing the springs? Based on my weight, everything i've read says I need heavier springs. I looked up traxxion dynamics and I can get new springs for the forks and the rear shock for about $230. Lord know's right now I can't afford a cartridge kit.

[Todd]

you carried it to Huey, he should have been able to tell you that the day he set it up.

I agree with Brad, i personally think you would need at least 1.0-1.25 springs in the forks. I weigh 160 lbs and have 1.0's in my little R6.

[BiggsRR07]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t252/crazyn6/TDFS_2.gif
Based on this chart from Traxxion's website, the bike weight (419 wet) plus rider weight (220) would put me at about .975. I know different manufactures may have different numbers but if I am reading this correctly then thats what the recommended springs should be. I'll be sure to ask Huey when I take it back.

[Huey130]

Your springs are fine for now based upon the hour long conversation / class we had and the measurements we got. I told you that what you had now was a baseline. A known starting point from which we can make changes.

We make those changes based upon what's happening in the scenario in which the bike is being used. I have no idea what you're doing on the street. I sponsor a stunt rider and build his forks. He's about to attempt a stoppie world record. But you said you were going to Barber. I crew chiefed Jake Morman to a 4th place at an AMA race there last month. Bikes get set up differently and your has a really good roadrace baseline for a midpack intermediate rider.

I listened and set your bike up for what you told me you were going to do with it and gave you the information to call me from the track so we could dial in anything that needed tweaking. I'll be happy to look at your stuff again and set it up for whatever it is you're doing now.

[BiggsRR07]

I'm definitely wanting it setup for the track as I don't ride street much anyways. I have no interest in stunting. I'm probably over thinking it so I'll let it be right now and see how it feels at Barber. Now that I know my springs are ok I feel better. Thanks for the info.