Google buys Motorola

[SquireSCA]

Very cool news for Android!

Google just announced the acquisition of Motorola. Now Google has a hardware manufacturer, one of the best actually, to develop hardware alongside the OS. Google said the move was to be able to "Supercharge the OS", which is currently seeing 550,000 activations per day, with over 150,000,000 worldwide so far.

While Android may still have some fragmentation in the market as other manufacturers use it and customize it to suit their needs, at least Motorola devices will have the advantage of coming straight from Google, with hardware designed to be taken advantage of by the OS. And updates should come even faster to these devices as well.

Motorola has made some kickass phones of late... DroidX, Atrix, Droid X2, upcoming Bionic, etc...

Not to mention that the tabs should get a huge boost as well.

[jkhonea]

Very good news to hear. Will put Android on more stable playing ground. The only thing Google is going to need to be careful of is not showing favoritism to Motorola and piss off the other makers now. I don't think they will, but it's going to be touchy.

Think this will definitely solidify their stance. Also been reading they are supposed to be putting a lot more work into reducing fragmentation. Now that they are acknowledging it is an issue, that is a step in the right direction.

[JSKeezy]

Is it now safe to say windows phones will be obsolete soon..my answer is yes....if htc js.t making it...no one will have one...

[SquireSCA]

Very good news to hear. Will put Android on more stable playing ground. The only thing Google is going to need to be careful of is not showing favoritism to Motorola and piss off the other makers now. I don't think they will, but it's going to be touchy.

Think this will definitely solidify their stance. Also been reading they are supposed to be putting a lot more work into reducing fragmentation. Now that they are acknowledging it is an issue, that is a step in the right direction.

Yeah, it will definitely be good for the platform.

Now that Apple is getting pummeled in the phone market and has had a 20% bite taken out of their tablet market by the Droid tabs, I wonder what their response will be? More lawsuits, or will they go back to innovating new products?

[SpeedGeek]

Dude, I don't know where you get your numbers... 20% bite of the iPad market? Are you KIDDING? Apple is selling more iPad 2's in 1 week than all the android tablets combined do in a month...

And while, yes, Android is beating iPhone, iPhone sales are STILL growing - ie, these two are killing everyone else.. Apple's iPhone sales are still growing quarter on quarter, so it's not really "eating into" iPhone, as much as Android is chewing up all the others. Apple hasn't lost any market share, it's just that Android and iPhone and pulling away from RIM and Windows Phone and Symbian (Symbian mostly.)

Now, that said, this is about 1 thing and 1 thing only - Google needing to get their hands on patents to keep Android from being chopped up in the patent wars. Apple got access to a huge cache of them from a purchase a few weeks ago, and if Google didn't do something quick it was going to have no ammunition to fight back with.

It will be interesting to see how Google deals with selling their own hardware again, and if they get preferential treatment to the Motorola models vs other Android licensees.

[SlimDizzleATL]

Now if they'll stop pre-loading their phones with Motoblur, they will be golden.

[SpeedGeek]

Oh, and another thing about your 20% iPad share removed by Android figure - Apple releases numbers based on units sold (ie, in consumer's hands), those android figures are in units SHIPPED (ie, in consumers hands AND just sitting on store shelves, not actually sold to anyone.) Which in the case of Android tablets is a LOT higher number of them sitting on shelves than being purchased...

Go walk into a best buy store some time... They have a big display table with all the tablets... NOBODY is looking at them... Now go look at the iPad display - there's ALWAYS 2-3+ people standing there playing with them...

[SquireSCA]

Oh, and another thing about your 20% iPad share removed by Android figure - Apple releases numbers based on units sold (ie, in consumer's hands), those android figures are in units SHIPPED (ie, in consumers hands AND just sitting on store shelves, not actually sold to anyone.) Which in the case of Android tablets is a LOT higher number of them sitting on shelves than being purchased...

Go walk into a best buy store some time... They have a big display table with all the tablets... NOBODY is looking at them... Now go look at the iPad display - there's ALWAYS 2-3+ people standing there playing with them...

I know, just look for the skinny jeans and androgenous haircuts, they are there every time. ;-)

http://www.bgr.com/2011/08/12/android-steals-20-of-tablet-market-from-ipad-over-past-year/

[SpeedGeek]

Yes, I'm aware of that report... And it was also found that the numbers they used to base that report were using Apple's SOLD numbers vs Android's SHIPPED numbers... QUITE different numbers to be using to judge market share.

Shipped != SOLD and in use.

Let me ask you, how many people do you know who actually OWN an Android based tablet? How many do you know who own iPads... By your statement, and belief in this report, it should be 8 iPads to every 2 Android tablets. I don't know a SINGLE person with an Android tablet, yet I know probably 15 who have iPads.

[RogueElement]

Yes, I'm aware of that report... And it was also found that the numbers they used to base that report were using Apple's SOLD numbers vs Android's SHIPPED numbers... QUITE different numbers to be using to judge market share.

Shipped != SOLD and in use.

Let me ask you, how many people do you know who actually OWN an Android based tablet? How many do you know who own iPads... By your statement, and belief in this report, it should be 8 iPads to every 2 Android tablets. I don't know a SINGLE person with an Android tablet, yet I know probably 15 who have iPads.

I actually know about an equal amount of people personally with android tabs and ipads.

[SpeedGeek]

Worldwide Smartphone sales to end users at end of Q2 2011:

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/08/gartner_smartphone_platforms_2Q11.png

(Which came from here: http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1764714)

Note - iPhone still growing... Android growing... Symbian, dropping like a rock...

And it's also kind of a BS figure when you consider that there are how many different companies making and selling different Android units, all being lumped together vs iPhone sales... But whatever...

All I'm saying is, Android isn't taking away from iPhone, not in the slightest, they're both just gobbling up all the competition.

[jkhonea]

Beyond that, how many current tech Android phones are out there and the iPhone 4 is a year old? Wait until the new iPhone drops and what changes it has and see where it goes from there. If it goes to the dual core, which is about a given, and picks up a 4" screen, with the iOS5 improvements, they are going to jump again.

[SpeedGeek]

And HERE is the actual research by ABI on Media Tablets that that story you linked to was based on...

http://www.abiresearch.com/research/1004847

Notice the part about "Media Tablet SHIPMENTS" in each of the links down there? That's how many samsung, motorola, etc shipped out their doors to places like Best Buy to sell... NOT how many actually got sold to consumers. With 1 exception - Apple.... Apple has been sold out on the iPad 2 up until like a week ago - selling every unit they made/shipped. So in the case of the numbers for Apple, Shipped DOES = SOLD.

[SpeedGeek]

Beyond that, how many current tech Android phones are out there and the iPhone 4 is a year old? Wait until the new iPhone drops and what changes it has and see where it goes from there. If it goes to the dual core, which is about a given, and picks up a 4" screen, with the iOS5 improvements, they are going to jump again.

Well, the expectation is that the huge Q2 numbers were for all the people signing up for Verizon with their iPhone 4 unit. But yes, you can bet there will be another big jump with the iPhone 5 and even more so next year with the 6...

I dont' think you're going to see dual core in the 5... It's going to use the A5 chip... A6 won't be ready until next year...

[SpeedGeek]

Come on, I want to hear the words.... "Mike, you were right, I was wrong, I'm sorry... -- Dave"

[jkhonea]

Well, the expectation is that the huge Q2 numbers were for all the people signing up for Verizon with their iPhone 4 unit. But yes, you can bet there will be another big jump with the iPhone 5 and even more so next year with the 6...

I dont' think you're going to see dual core in the 5... It's going to use the A5 chip... A6 won't be ready until next year...

I thought the indications were it was going to have the dual core in the iPad 2. That one was the A5, wasn't it?

[jkhonea]

The A5 is a dual core chip.

"The A5 contains a dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 CPU"

[SpeedGeek]

Ah, my bad, I thought it was still a single core... (SOME of us are able to admit when we're wrong... ;) )


Yes it'll get whatever is in the current iPad...So, yes, the A5... And it should be able to take advantage of that 2nd core right away.

[jkhonea]

Thank God, thought I was going crazy for a minute there. Not that it would be a long trip. :crackup:

[SquireSCA]

Yes, I'm aware of that report... And it was also found that the numbers they used to base that report were using Apple's SOLD numbers vs Android's SHIPPED numbers... QUITE different numbers to be using to judge market share.

Shipped != SOLD and in use.

Let me ask you, how many people do you know who actually OWN an Android based tablet? How many do you know who own iPads... By your statement, and belief in this report, it should be 8 iPads to every 2 Android tablets. I don't know a SINGLE person with an Android tablet, yet I know probably 15 who have iPads.

Probably because the iPad people make sure that everyone knows that they have one. It's one of the primary reasons for getting one I think... ;-)

[jkhonea]

Dave, you can do better than that. He's very right on Apple using true numbers sold and Android using numbers shipped. Seen that written in a couple of places.

[SpeedGeek]

Probably because the iPad people make sure that everyone knows that they have one. It's one of the primary reasons for getting one I think... ;-)

No, we just actually really LOVE our iPads, unlike the people who buy Android tablets and then WISH they had bought the ipad :)

[SquireSCA]

Come on, I want to hear the words.... "Mike, you were right, I was wrong, I'm sorry... -- Dave"

I did not catch that it was shipments versus sold units, my bad.

However, Android is gobbling up more of the market, faster than iPhone is. That trend will continue to pick up steam. And of course it is a factor that there are more Android choices to pick from, but that is part of the benefit, you get more choices as to what fits your needs. It's more than a "white bezel or black bezel" world. Memory, battery, screen size, features, camera, HDMI, etc...

The tablet front is about 2-3 years behind the phone front. iPhone took an early lead on the phone, and since then has lost it and will continue to lose it. They will never own that market again, but they will hold on to a nice piece of it for the foreseeable future.

Tablets, iPhone was the only real game in town for well over a year, of course most tablets will be iPads... But like the phone market, that will change over time. Not just because of the advantages of Android, but because Apple cannot produce them fast enough. As more people move towards tablets, only the Android platform with dozens of manufacturers cranking them out are going to be able to fill that demand.

[SquireSCA]

No, we just actually really LOVE our iPads, unlike the people who buy Android tablets and then WISH they had bought the ipad :)

You already have an iPhone and a MacBook Pro. Now you have their love-child. You have it because you are a geek with a hardon for Apple products. You have it for the coolness factor. It is not the most practical device in many respects. It's a large phone without the phone. A lot less power and options than the Macbook, but still too large to carry in a pocket, you need some sort of bag or case or whatever. Great screen for browsing, but still no Flash support, and unlike the Apple marketing team, you cannot Photoshop in Flash content to make the websites you are viewing look normal and not contain empty holes full of unsupported content...

The tabs are growing on me, but I would never buy an iPad. Too limited, too proprietary, even if it is a cool device, which it is.

[ramm]

Probably because the iPad people make sure that everyone knows that they have one. It's one of the primary reasons for getting one I think... ;-)

:lol: So true.

[jkhonea]

Dave, now you're showing personal bias saying it has no use. I have secured no less than four projects using the iPad for my electronic portfolio. I've also used it onsite for revision mark ups and notes. It does what I bought it for beautifully, and that is not playing games.

[SquireSCA]

Dave, now you're showing personal bias saying it has no use. I have secured no less than four projects using the iPad for my electronic portfolio. I've also used it onsite for revision mark ups and notes. It does what I bought it for beautifully, and that is not playing games.

But I did not say that it had no use. But to be fair, it doesn't do anything that the Macbook doesn't do. In fact it does less.

All I am saying is that when I get ready to plunk down $500 on a tablet, I want to be able to choose the memory, add my own for more movie storage, be able to access an SD card or USB external hard drive, have HDMI out, etc... I want to be able to customize it with ROMs or whatever, etc...

It is a cool device, but my point was that if you already have an iPhone and a Macbook, then the iPad only gives you some of the benefits of both, but you get even more limitations.

People like Mike have it just to have it. He has an iPhone 4, a Macbook, a Mac Pro tower, a Mac Mini, etc... If you put a piece of dog shit on a shelf with an Apple logo, he would stand in line for it. LOL

Which is fine, but it doesn't do anything that the devices that he already owns don't do. It doesn't mean it has no uses, it simply means that it is 99% redundant, that's all.

[SpeedGeek]

Yes, but my point is that it's not at Apple's expense... It's not that Android is winning and Apple is losing. It's that Apple and Android are winning and everyone else is losing! I don't care what Nokia does, Windows 7 phone is a non-starter and going nowhere fast. HP's palm stuff, likewise, too little too late to the party. RIM is a sinking ship and as soon as Android and Apple get businesses beyond relying upon BBMail RIM is effectively dead.

I have no problem with Android being successful or selling more than iPhone... Fine.. No biggie. They're both good products (although I find the Android world WAYYYYY too fragmented and more like the linux wild-wild west than I'd prefer to deal with.)

What I AM saying is that android tablets just aren't even close to being baked yet, IMO. They're where Android phones were 2 years ago - interesting little diversions, but with terrible build quality and major shortcomings that made them nowhere near as nice as the iOS competition at the time. That started to change when the Droid first came out, and the newer versions of Android Phone have largely fixed the issues and the manufacturers have put out better quality hardware. But until they do that with the Tablets, they're going to keep playing 2nd fiddle to apple.

Apple also has a HUGE advantage in pricing structure that the others have a really hard time matching because they buy the OS from google, the parts from all these other places, each adding their own markup in. Apple designs the CPU, the OS, and the overall unit, they control the marketplace (iTunes) and they have the money and marketshare to demand great deals on key components like LCDs and Flash memory in huge production runs years in advance, which gives them much lower prices for those parts.

For instance, Even though Samsung makes it's own screens, and flash and RAM, it can't make the same quality and level tablet product that apple can for the same amount of money.

finally, Apple is about boutique, high quality, high standards, not about market share.... When you are fighting over marketshare it quickly turns into a race for the bottom,where nobody makes any money... You certainly can't say that Apple doesn't make money! (only the #1/#2 valued publicly traded company...) So they must be doing SOMETHING right...

[ramm]

So they must be doing SOMETHING right...

Marketing and simplicity.

How else did the saying, "Should I just get a mac?" come along? :lol:

[SpeedGeek]

But I did not say that it had no use. But to be fair, it doesn't do anything that the Macbook doesn't do. In fact it does less.

<snip>
Which is fine, but it doesn't do anything that the devices that he already owns don't do. It doesn't mean it has no uses, it simply means that it is 99% redundant, that's all.

Yes and no.... Each has it's use case...

iPod Classic - My whole music collection in the car at all times. No brainer there.

iPhone - Phone (duh) and music while on the bike

iPad - smaller, more portable, so if I'm on the bike, I take the iPad. If I'm reading research papers, or just surfing the web, I often prefer the iPad - it's just more natural to use for those things. Way better for watching movies on, especially on a plane than either the Macbook or the iPhone (although the iPhone works in a pinch.)

Macbook - If I'm doing heavy web surfing, and researching something, writing long posts, etc, and I can get away with carrying my bag with the laptop, then I use the Macbook because it's better suited for those use cases. But it's an old model with a horrible graphics chip (Intel GMA 950) and a smaller screen, so it's no really well suited for gaming or programming (although I can do some programming on it, just not ideal.)

Mac Mini - that's used exclusively as my HTPC media hub and TV recording unit. I used to have a Windows PC for that, but it just became such a PITA, especially when I converted to HD and moved up to 64Bit Windows 7 - stuff just wouldn't work and I got fed up with it. My new setup works beautifully - Capture using EYETV and a Hauppauge HD PVR unit off the Comcast box, quickly can edit out commercials, and then export straight into iTunes where it's availalbe to any computer in the house and easily synced to the iPad or iPhone, or streamable to the iPad no matter where I am.

Mac Pro - That's the big rig. Gaming (increasingly on the Mac OSX side rather than Windows, thanks to Steam supporting Mac), Programming, heavy video editing work, etc. Could I have done the Mac Mini tasks on this? Sure, but it would have been a problem when I wanted to record something, but always wanted to be booted into Windows to play some game.

Each has their purpose and use, and I make use of each of them pretty equally.

And no, I don't just run out and buy everything Apple makes. I don't have an AppleTV (no real use for one), don't have most of the iPods (no need). I just buy what I find useful to me.

Saying the iPad is pointless, though, is BS and shows that you don't really get what makes them so nice. Are they "do everything" devices? No. But when used for what they were meant for, they are fantastic devices. And that's the problem with your thinking - you keep expecting them to be full replacements for a laptop, that can do anything and everything that a laptop can do, and thus needs all these things like removable storage and such that a laptop needs. But it ISN'T meant for that and doesn't need those things to make them useful.

[SquireSCA]

Yes, but my point is that it's not at Apple's expense... It's not that Android is winning and Apple is losing. It's that Apple and Android are winning and everyone else is losing! I don't care what Nokia does, Windows 7 phone is a non-starter and going nowhere fast. HP's palm stuff, likewise, too little too late to the party. RIM is a sinking ship and as soon as Android and Apple get businesses beyond relying upon BBMail RIM is effectively dead.

I have no problem with Android being successful or selling more than iPhone... Fine.. No biggie. They're both good products (although I find the Android world WAYYYYY too fragmented and more like the linux wild-wild west than I'd prefer to deal with.)

What I AM saying is that android tablets just aren't even close to being baked yet, IMO. They're where Android phones were 2 years ago - interesting little diversions, but with terrible build quality and major shortcomings that made them nowhere near as nice as the iOS competition at the time. That started to change when the Droid first came out, and the newer versions of Android Phone have largely fixed the issues and the manufacturers have put out better quality hardware. But until they do that with the Tablets, they're going to keep playing 2nd fiddle to apple.

Apple also has a HUGE advantage in pricing structure that the others have a really hard time matching because they buy the OS from google, the parts from all these other places, each adding their own markup in. Apple designs the CPU, the OS, and the overall unit, they control the marketplace (iTunes) and they have the money and marketshare to demand great deals on key components like LCDs and Flash memory in huge production runs years in advance, which gives them much lower prices for those parts.

For instance, Even though Samsung makes it's own screens, and flash and RAM, it can't make the same quality and level tablet product that apple can for the same amount of money.

finally, Apple is about boutique, high quality, high standards, not about market share.... When you are fighting over marketshare it quickly turns into a race for the bottom,where nobody makes any money... You certainly can't say that Apple doesn't make money! (only the #1/#2 valued publicly traded company...) So they must be doing SOMETHING right...

They absolutely do something right, in much the same way that Harley Davidson does something right. They make a decent product, but they market it every well. They made Apple a household name, just as when people find out that you ride, the first question usually, "Is it a Harley"?

Is that because Harley builds a better bike? No. But the hype, the mystique and brand image is, just as it is with Apple. Their phones are not better. They lack a lot of features, but they have that brand allure and it is mostly because of marketing.

Now, Android's issue is mainly fragmentation. It is and it isn't really. I haven't been able to do or not do something because of it, but things have been changing rapidly. And with Google buying a powerhouse like Motorola, we should see even more changes, not only with phones, but with tablets. With a company like Motorola owned by Google, the synergy that Apple enjoys now comes to Android.

And think of how this will impact other manufacturers. Motorola will have an advantage. If they want to compete, they cannot get the Android OS and then screw it up by putting it on a tab that has the wrong hardware, load it up with bloat, try to do things half-assed in order to cut corners and cut costs... Google has a vision of that the OS should be, and they will have one of the best names in the business working alongside them from a hardware perspective to make sure that things move forward hand in hand, which until now, hasn't really happened in the Android world.

That alone should make a huge difference in how things roll forward.

[SquireSCA]

Yes and no.... Each has it's use case...

iPod Classic - My whole music collection in the car at all times. No brainer there.

iPhone - Phone (duh) and music while on the bike

iPad - smaller, more portable, so if I'm on the bike, I take the iPad. If I'm reading research papers, or just surfing the web, I often prefer the iPad - it's just more natural to use for those things. Way better for watching movies on, especially on a plane than either the Macbook or the iPhone (although the iPhone works in a pinch.)

Macbook - If I'm doing heavy web surfing, and researching something, writing long posts, etc, and I can get away with carrying my bag with the laptop, then I use the Macbook because it's better suited for those use cases. But it's an old model with a horrible graphics chip (Intel GMA 950) and a smaller screen, so it's no really well suited for gaming or programming (although I can do some programming on it, just not ideal.)

Mac Mini - that's used exclusively as my HTPC media hub and TV recording unit. I used to have a Windows PC for that, but it just became such a PITA, especially when I converted to HD and moved up to 64Bit Windows 7 - stuff just wouldn't work and I got fed up with it. My new setup works beautifully - Capture using EYETV and a Hauppauge HD PVR unit off the Comcast box, quickly can edit out commercials, and then export straight into iTunes where it's availalbe to any computer in the house and easily synced to the iPad or iPhone, or streamable to the iPad no matter where I am.

Mac Pro - That's the big rig. Gaming (increasingly on the Mac OSX side rather than Windows, thanks to Steam supporting Mac), Programming, heavy video editing work, etc. Could I have done the Mac Mini tasks on this? Sure, but it would have been a problem when I wanted to record something, but always wanted to be booted into Windows to play some game.

Each has their purpose and use, and I make use of each of them pretty equally.

And no, I don't just run out and buy everything Apple makes. I don't have an AppleTV (no real use for one), don't have most of the iPods (no need). I just buy what I find useful to me.

Saying the iPad is pointless, though, is BS and shows that you don't really get what makes them so nice. Are they "do everything" devices? No. But when used for what they were meant for, they are fantastic devices.

And that's fine, all I am saying is that it doesn't bring too much to the table if you take away the "coolness" factor.

It's too big to just carry in a pocket or your hand, you can't do any serious work on it like you can a laptop or desktop. So what you are left with is a device that is sorta portable, but not much more than a laptop... You can do pretty much whatever you do on your phone already, just on a larger screen.

Again, not saying it isn't cool or have uses, it is just that for $500 or more, I don't want to be limited to vanilla or chocolate. I want to be able to plug in a portable hard drive and transfer files. If I am gonna use it for movies, I want to be able to add memory cards for those collections. If I want to copy stuff off of the device, I don't want to have to make sure that they have itunes installed, or have iTunes tell me I am linked to another computer and cannot do that, etc...

For what it costs, it has too many limitations, and now that it isn't the only game in town, I have options. I think that by winter time, there will be some enticing options on the market to pick from...

[jkhonea]

This can be simplified by saying it's not right for YOU. That's it. That doesn't mean it isn't right for everyone else. Just not you.

[Gmoney]

As somone who dosn't like apple - I can pretty much run my day-to-day business with my Ipad - not a replacement for my PC but I get a lot done with the Ipad..

[ramm]

I have given up complaining about ipads and such. Considering we've started writing app's for them and android phones, we're making money off of people with them. So yeah...

[SpeedGeek]

Maybe, we'll see... but like I said, they have a WAY to go IMO before they're iPad "killers"...

The size - Actually I find the size perfect - I wouldn't want to put it in my pocket. Any smaller and the screen is too small for really surfing the web nicely (even doing it on your "big screen" Android phone it's still too damn small for any serious surfing IMO). Any bigger, and yeah, I'd rather just have a laptop. It's a perfect size for reading books or surfing the web, it's big enough to be able to more or less touch type on if needed. Any smaller and the keyboard would be super cramped.

The memory card stuff - eh, I have the 64 GB iPad 1 and it's plenty big enough. I have a TON of movies on mine. When they're converted down for the screen size, they don't take up much space, so it's easy to get 30-50 movies on there no problem. and you don't HAVE to go the "sync through iTunes" route. There's a $0.99 app called Goodreader that effectively adds a filesystem to the iPad. You can upload files to it over a wifi connection or through the iTunes interface without doing the "sync" game.

You make fun of me for carrying around the Sprint Overdrive, and you want to carry around a portable hard drive with your movies on??? WHY? Defeats the mobility purpose!

The HDMI - eh, I can see the usefulness, and you CAN get a cable to do that on the iPad for $39 that allows you to hook it up to a TV via HDMI to play movies on the TV... I'd rather do it that way so I'm not paying for something I won't ever use. But to each their own...

In short, you seem to keep perceiving limitations that aren't really there IMO. I'm betting if you used one for 2 weeks, and got over your "it's missing this checkbox on the marketing brochure" issues, you'd find it a very nice and useful and powerful device and would enjoy using it.

[SquireSCA]

This can be simplified by saying it's not right for YOU. That's it. That doesn't mean it isn't right for everyone else. Just not you.

Which is why I said that I would not buy one. I didn't say that you shouldn't.

[SpeedGeek]

Ok, obviously not an Android-based unit, but still an iPad competitor....Things aren't looking good for the HP Tablet:

http://allthingsd.com/20110816/ouchpad-best-buy-sitting-on-a-pile-of-unsold-hp-tablets/

[SquireSCA]

Ok, obviously not an Android-based unit, but still an iPad competitor....Things aren't looking good for the HP Tablet:

http://allthingsd.com/20110816/ouchpad-best-buy-sitting-on-a-pile-of-unsold-hp-tablets/

Because HP was stupid in using WebOS. Had they released it with Windows 7 or Android Gingerbread, it might have stood a chance.

[SquireSCA]

blah blah blah

Thank you Troy, for once again stealing op-ed pieces from MacRumors and presenting it here as if it you actually wrote it or held it as your own opinion...

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/08/17/best-buy-seeing-hp-touchpad-sell-through-rate-of-under-10/

Tell us, have you ever had an original thought, apart from what you copy and paste from the most pro-Apple forum on the web and present as your own material?

Just curious.

[SquireSCA]

Everything you are saying, is what you said 2 years ago when Android phones started hitting their stride. Now where is Apple?

And as far as iPhone sales go...

1) How many of them were people switching to Verizon and basically re-purchasing a phone that they already had on AT&T?
2) How much of Apple's "sales" are from their existing customer base? Meaning, how many people had an iPhone and went and got a 3g, then had a 3G and got a 3GS, etc...?

The iPhone sells well, but the "new customers" are not nearly as high as they would have you believe. Meanwhile, Android has 50% of the global market in only 2 years, and is growing at an inprecidented rate.

The same will happen in the tablet world, give it a year...

[Todd]

Troy, i have to side with David here, if you want to post stuff from their website, simply link it. The whole copy/paste crap pisses me off, especially when youre not even citing where you got it from.

[SquireSCA]

Troy, i have to side with David here, if you want to post stuff from their website, simply link it. The whole copy/paste crap pisses me off, especially when youre not even citing where you got it from.

Because it is never his own thoughts, he never quotes or links to it, he just steals the opinions of the most rabid Apple fanboi forum and pawns it off as his own.

It's lame and dishonest, apart from it being highly biased...

[Todd]

i know why he's doing it Dave, thank you.

I think its safe to say Troy has an apple attached on each side of his head rather than ears, but again, Troy, if youre going to cite "facts" from the Apple websites (that yes, are biased), then put up a link.

[RogueElement]

Everything you are saying, is what you said 2 years ago when Android phones started hitting their stride. Now where is Apple?

And as far as iPhone sales go...

1) How many of them were people switching to Verizon and basically re-purchasing a phone that they already had on AT&T?
2) How much of Apple's "sales" are from their existing customer base? Meaning, how many people had an iPhone and went and got a 3g, then had a 3G and got a 3GS, etc...?

The iPhone sells well, but the "new customers" are not nearly as high as they would have you believe. Meanwhile, Android has 50% of the global market in only 2 years, and is growing at an inprecidented rate.

The same will happen in the tablet world, give it a year...

Do you only count sales from new clients? Or do you count sales from existing clients as well?

Apple does make a solid product. People that owned that product (before there were really any competitors) continue to buy upgraded versions of that product because that's what they've known and its a safe bet that the next one will be solid too.


In the end, though, sales are sales. When it comes time for your quarterly report, it doesnt matter if you sold 1 unit each to 1 million people or 10 units each to 100,000 people.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Android is not doing well. At this point in time, though, Apple is outselling Android devices. Take a look at it one year from now and that may very well change.

[SquireSCA]

Do you only count sales from new clients? Or do you count sales from existing clients as well?

Apple does make a solid product. People that owned that product (before there were really any competitors) continue to buy upgraded versions of that product because that's what they've known and its a safe bet that the next one will be solid too.


In the end, though, sales are sales. When it comes time for your quarterly report, it doesnt matter if you sold 1 unit each to 1 million people or 10 units each to 100,000 people.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Android is not doing well. At this point in time, though, Apple is outselling Android devices. Take a look at it one year from now and that may very well change.

I wonder how it calculates into "marketshare" when a huge percentage of your "sales" are existing customers relacing their current Apple phones with slightly upgraded ones.

If I have a million "sales" that year, but 750k of them were Apple fans running out to replace a 3GS with an iPhone 4, I only really gained 250k in marketshare, not a million.

[RogueElement]

I wonder how it calculates into "marketshare" when a huge percentage of your "sales" are existing customers relacing their current Apple phones with slightly upgraded ones.

If I have a million "sales" that year, but 750k of them were Apple fans running out to replace a 3GS with an iPhone 4, I only really gained 250k in marketshare, not a million.

No doubt. One of the problems Apple has is that since people upgrade so often, they normally have nearly pristine phones/tablets/players that they, in turn, sell to other people for less than what Apple would make them available for. Apple doesn't see a bit of that money. Android devices haven't quite hit that point yet since there is very rarely a direct upgrade line every year.

[Ringo®]

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab331/emjay81/InternetFight.gif

[TroyBoy30]

Troy, i have to side with David here, if you want to post stuff from their website, simply link it. The whole copy/paste crap pisses me off, especially when youre not even citing where you got it from.

Guess it's a shame I don't give a **** what you think hu. Thanks for letting me know it pissed u off though

The link was right above my post lol.

[Todd]

try it again, and watch what happens. :D

[JSKeezy]

:pop:

[SpeedGeek]

1) How many of them were people switching to Verizon and basically re-purchasing a phone that they already had on AT&T?
2) How much of Apple's "sales" are from their existing customer base? Meaning, how many people had an iPhone and went and got a 3g, then had a 3G and got a 3GS, etc...?



Um, and how many Android based phones have YOU bought so far now??? I'd posit that there is as much or more "turnover" for Android owners as there is for iPhone owners... there are those that have to have the latest phone released, and others that wait and get a new model when their contract expires. But in both camps, there's plenty of people buying new Android/iOS phones to replace their older models.

That being said, looking at the raw sales numbers that I posted the link to (the chart) symbian and Windows phone and RIM are losing on new/renew sales, where iOS and Android are gaining..

[SquireSCA]

Um, and how many Android based phones have YOU bought so far now???

1.

Still on the one and only Android phone I have ever purchased, the Droid X. I did buy 3 iPhones though, not including the 1 replacement iPhone they gave me because one had a bad GPS chip in it.



I'd posit that there is as much or more "turnover" for Android owners as there is for iPhone owners... there are those that have to have the latest phone released, and others that wait and get a new model when their contract expires. But in both camps, there's plenty of people buying new Android/iOS phones to replace their older models.

Not sure. Of course there is turnover in every phone, but I don't see people standing out in line for 48 hours to get a new Droid to replace the one they already have, do you? I do see that when any Apple phone is released, not because the general public wants it so bad, but because Apple fans tend to be so fanatical about the brand that they get whipped into a frenzy any time something comes out. I think that if you look at Apple's annual report and look at the phone division, you will see that a surprisingly high number of their revenue comes from their existing customer base. We are talking millions of phones worldwide that are going to people that already have iPhones, they just want to pay a couple hundred bucks to get the new one that can copy and paste text or whatever... ;-)


That being said, looking at the raw sales numbers that I posted the link to (the chart) symbian and Windows phone and RIM are losing on new/renew sales, where iOS and Android are gaining..

They are gaining because the other companies you mentioned are losing, however, the gap between iOS and Android is widening and will continue to do so. You always tout how one of the strengths of Apple is that the OS and hardware are designed together. Well, now Google has that opportunity with Motorola under their wing, so it is reasonable to expect the same kind of synergy. I expect great things from this.

Android already owns the phone market, they are 50% of the global market and growing. Tablets will start catching up as well, it is inevitable.

[SpeedGeek]

True, but again, we're kinda comparing apples (sic) to oranges here...

When you say iPhone, you're talking about a single device sold by a single company... When you talk about Android, you talking about 10's of models every year, sold by multiple companies... A more direct comparison would be iPhone sales vs Droid X or Evo 3D, etc. But whatever, it really doesn't matter...

Honestly, I don't give a rats ass what the sales figures are like.

And dude, you're being just as much a "fanboi" for Android as the rest of us that you accuse of being Apple fanbois.... We buy the products that we like, that do what we want in ways we prefer. If that's Android-based for you, fine. For me it's not. I prefer the way apple does things, so I go for their products.

And most of the time, the reason you see the long lines at release is because the demand is high and people know that supply is usually pretty low for the first couple weeks, so if they want the new device, you gotta stand in line in those first couple days and try to get one.

You have to hand it to Apple, they've done a wonderful job of getting people to really connect "Smartphone" and "Tablet" synonymous with "iPhone" and "iPad"... Most companies would KILL to have that sort of public mindshare with their products. You don't get that by having shit products... You get that by producing something better than the competition at the time it's released - so much better that it totally overshadows everyone else.

When a generic person on the street walks up and sees your phone, they don't ask if it's an Android phone... They ask "Is that an iPhone?"... Even with Android having a bigger market share, Apple still has the mindshare.

But ANYHOW, regardless, we'll have to wait and see what Google ends up doing with Motorola. If they only wanted the patents, they might discontinue making handsets. If they get into the handset market though, it could get interesting, making the Motorola models be the "reference designs".

[SquireSCA]

True, but again, we're kinda comparing apples (sic) to oranges here...

When you say iPhone, you're talking about a single device sold by a single company... When you talk about Android, you talking about 10's of models every year, sold by multiple companies... A more direct comparison would be iPhone sales vs Droid X or Evo 3D, etc. But whatever, it really doesn't matter...

But that is part of the point. Variety. Choices. Options. Carriers. Etc... On one hand you had 1 carrier(the worst one), and a choice of white or black. That was it. Now you can at least choose from two carriers, but you are still limited to black or white. Consumers want choices. They want flexibility, which is why Apple enjoyed a 6% marketshare in the computer world while PC's dominated. You could get more choices, more options, more power and flexibility, for less money.


And dude, you're being just as much a "fanboi" for Android as the rest of us that you accuse of being Apple fanbois.... We buy the products that we like, that do what we want in ways we prefer. If that's Android-based for you, fine. For me it's not. I prefer the way apple does things, so I go for their products.

Fair enough.


And most of the time, the reason you see the long lines at release is because the demand is high and people know that supply is usually pretty low for the first couple weeks, so if they want the new device, you gotta stand in line in those first couple days and try to get one.

Because of that fanatical fanbase that would buy a new Apple phone every week if Apple released one. Most of them want it because they are fans of the brand and want bragging rights. I saw the people with lawn chairs camped out over night at the AT&T store next to Cycle Gear... And I talked to them, and they were loons. I know people that didn't go to as much effort and hassle to adopt a child as these clowns were prepared to do to be the first among their friends and get a stupid phone that doesn't make calls any better than the phone they already had. I laughed at them, openly I might add, and walked in the day after the release and bought one, they had plenty on hand.

Apple does things this way to hype up their fan base, because that fan base is the majority of their sales revenue. They just keep selling mildly updated devices to the same people over and over again.


You have to hand it to Apple, they've done a wonderful job of getting people to really connect "Smartphone" and "Tablet" synonymous with "iPhone" and "iPad"... Most companies would KILL to have that sort of public mindshare with their products. You don't get that by having shit products... You get that by producing something better than the competition at the time it's released - so much better that it totally overshadows everyone else.

The same could be said for Harley Davidson, whose fan base is almost identical in nature to Apple's. Both are household names, synonumous with bike or phone.

Its marketing. Clever marketing, to be sure, but marketing nonetheless.

When a generic person on the street walks up and sees your phone, they don't ask if it's an Android phone... They ask "Is that an iPhone?"... Even with Android having a bigger market share, Apple still has the mindshare.

But ANYHOW, regardless, we'll have to wait and see what Google ends up doing with Motorola. If they only wanted the patents, they might discontinue making handsets. If they get into the handset market though, it could get interesting, making the Motorola models be the "reference designs".[/QUOTE]

[SpeedGeek]

Yes, but they do that and whip up the "fans" because it's those very same fans that go out and get their friends and neighbors to buy Apple products as well..

and dude, I was a LONG TIME apple hater/holdout.. I had to deal with some of them in college and found them to be quite lacking. It wasn't until my old eMachines laptop was on it's last legs that I decided to give a Mac a try... At the time, the price diff for the Macbook vs a comparable Dell laptop was only like $50 so I figured I'd give it a try - worst case I just throw windows on it... I haven't looked back! After 1 week I was in love with the OS, in love with the way Apple did things, in love with the design. It just was so much nicer in so many ways than every PC I had ever used. That love has transferred over to Phones and now tablets. And as a result, I've managed to convert multiple friends, showing them that there is a "better way" than the stodgy old PC way for computers, something better than Windows Mobile / Symbian for phone, and better than Windows Tablet Edition for tablets.

So far, you're the ONLY one of my friends that's ever had any sort of stink about Apple. All the others have come to fall in love with the Apple way of doing things as I have...

[SpeedGeek]

Oh, and that Mac marketshare is now up to 11% BTW... It's been steadily climbing over the last 4 years... The iPhone and iPad are acting as "gateway" products and getting people to go Mac on their next computer purchase.

Here at work, we're almost evenly split between Macs, Windows and Linux machines.

[SquireSCA]

Yes, but they do that and whip up the "fans" because it's those very same fans that go out and get their friends and neighbors to buy Apple products as well..

and dude, I was a LONG TIME apple hater/holdout.. I had to deal with some of them in college and found them to be quite lacking. It wasn't until my old eMachines laptop was on it's last legs that I decided to give a Mac a try... At the time, the price diff for the Macbook vs a comparable Dell laptop was only like $50 so I figured I'd give it a try - worst case I just throw windows on it... I haven't looked back! After 1 week I was in love with the OS, in love with the way Apple did things, in love with the design. It just was so much nicer in so many ways than every PC I had ever used. That love has transferred over to Phones and now tablets. And as a result, I've managed to convert multiple friends, showing them that there is a "better way" than the stodgy old PC way for computers, something better than Windows Mobile / Symbian for phone, and better than Windows Tablet Edition for tablets.

So far, you're the ONLY one of my friends that's ever had any sort of stink about Apple. All the others have come to fall in love with the Apple way of doing things as I have...

1) For PC's, I can build a more powerful computer with the specific options and stuff that I want, for a lot less money. I have never had issues with Windows. I have had every version since 3.11 for Work Groups. Run over 30 distros of Linux. Ran OSX Leopard for awhile. In the end, nothing out there gave me the speed, flexibility, ease of use and ability to game the way that Windows did. See, I don't like Apple's proprietary closed way of doing things.

2) The phone was great, but the service and reliability sucks. Almost every time I talk to Daniel on the phone, he drops the call, still to this day. I have yet to drop one since I got this thing, which is amazing frankly. But while the phone was great, it stagnated. It relied too much on marketing and "just being an iPhone" that it allowed Android phones to catch up and surpass them in features, power, options and ultimately marketshare. Even their TV adds come from the vantage point of "If you don't have an iPhone, well, you don't have an iPhone"... The ads are not even about power, features, options or reliability... it's about ego and status. A lot of ads are, but if that is all you have to go on, then it says something, doesn't it?

I don't want a phone just to be able to tell my friends that I have it. But you and I both know that there are a gazillion Apple fans that do, for that very reason. Its the hip cool phone to have, even if the screen is tiny, even if you do drop 10 calls a day. Its a fashion statement, it has 2 year outdated features in some cases, its limited in many ways, etc...

I have always despised that smug elitist attitude from Apple computer fans. I have always laughed at Apple's ludicrous claims of "fastest PC on earth", especially when Dell would take the Pepsi-Challenge and stomp them into the ground and show them for the frauds that they were. I hate that "we know best, we will tell you what features you want" rather than listening to what people were asking for.

It's all about the image, the culture, and I just don't get that. If it does something better, fine, but more often than not, it doesn't.

If it still meets your needs, great, go for it. I gave them a try. I gave them 3 tries in fact and then paid the ETF to get out of my contract to get something better and am happy that I did so.

[SquireSCA]

Oh, and that Mac marketshare is now up to 11% BTW... It's been steadily climbing over the last 4 years... The iPhone and iPad are acting as "gateway" products and getting people to go Mac on their next computer purchase.

Here at work, we're almost evenly split between Macs, Windows and Linux machines.

Mainly because of iPod and iPhone sales. If not for the iPod and then iPhone they would be lucky to be hanging onto 5%.

[SpeedGeek]

Again, Dave, you're projecting YOUR personal needs/desires/wants onto the marketplace in general. Most people want a computer you just turn on, it just works - like a toaster or a TV... They don't know how to, nor want to know how to, administrate a computer. they want it simple to use, and have it JUST WORK. That's where Apple has done a wonderful job over the last 10 years - OSX is really easy to use, and JUST WORKS.

The amount of phone calls I've gotten from my Mom since I gave her a Mac mini vs the PC she used to have has dropped DRAMATICALLY. And in reality, she's indicative of the broader computer market than people like you and me... We are really the small minority.

[SquireSCA]

Again, Dave, you're projecting YOUR personal needs/desires/wants onto the marketplace in general. Most people want a computer you just turn on, it just works - like a toaster or a TV... They don't know how to, nor want to know how to, administrate a computer. they want it simple to use, and have it JUST WORK. That's where Apple has done a wonderful job over the last 10 years - OSX is really easy to use, and JUST WORKS.

And it is for those exact reasons why Windows dominates the desktop market and Apple, despite iPod and iPhone sales doubling their PC sales, is still a niche player.


The amount of phone calls I've gotten from my Mom since I gave her a Mac mini vs the PC she used to have has dropped DRAMATICALLY. And in reality, she's indicative of the broader computer market than people like you and me... We are really the small minority.

So Apple's are more noob oriented?

[rr_double_rr]

Maybe not noob, but definitely simpler. People these days do seem to prefer plug and play gear, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people, ahem Dave, prefer to tweak their gear and get the most out of it. Others are happy having a pre-configured, limited device that they can just turn on, do what they need to do, and put away quickly.

[SpeedGeek]

And it is for those exact reasons why Windows dominates the desktop market and Apple, despite iPod and iPhone sales doubling their PC sales, is still a niche player.



So Apple's are more noob oriented?

HUH? How the HELL did you get my saying that "the average consumer wants something that just works and that's what Apple provides" and turn it into "And it is for those exact reasons why Windows dominates the desktop market and Apple, despite iPod and iPhone sales doubling their PC sales, is still a niche player." ?????? You're not disputing any point there!

PC+Windows dominates the market because back in the 80's when the computer market was highly fragmented (Apple, Atari, Commodore, TI, Tandy, IBM), IBM was the only ones taken seriously by businesses... And it quickly became a case of "I want to be able to take my work home, so I need a PC since that's what I have at work"... After Windows 3.1 came out, the others all quickly petered out.

It's not that Windows is a "better" OS - in fact, it's FAR from a great one... But because it was pretty much the ONLY game in town from the 90's and early 2000's that was viable because of the huge installed base, and huge amount of software written for it over that time, most people didn't know anything else existed. Linux (still to this day) is too difficult to admin for the average consumer.

iPod-->iPhone have acted as gateways to get the general population to rediscover Mac and they're finding that "wow, there IS an alternative to Windows, and it's a really great one! And it works really well with my iPod and iPhone!"

THAT is why consumers are starting to move towards Mac - even with the higher prices and the slightly lower performance hardware (vs bleeding edge PC), people are moving away from PC and towards Mac... The customer service and support is second to none - compared with the CRAP you get when you buy a prebuilt PC from HP or Dell (again, most average consumers don't BUILD PC's like you and I do.) The designs of Apple products are sleek an elegant - not huge beige towers and tons of cables all over the place... They LOOK like furniture - not like something from a server room. That makes them more appealing to people to keep them out in the open in their homes.

So, again, while YOU might not find value in the Apple line and Apple way of doing things, there's an increasing number of people who do...

Apple is making HUGE inroads in businesses, and especially on campus - go walk around GaTech some time... Almost 1/2 of the incoming freshmen are carrying around Macbooks...

[SquireSCA]

HUH? How the HELL did you get my saying that "the average consumer wants something that just works and that's what Apple provides" and turn it into "And it is for those exact reasons why Windows dominates the desktop market and Apple, despite iPod and iPhone sales doubling their PC sales, is still a niche player." ?????? You're not disputing any point there!

PC+Windows dominates the market because back in the 80's when the computer market was highly fragmented (Apple, Atari, Commodore, TI, Tandy, IBM), IBM was the only ones taken seriously by businesses... And it quickly became a case of "I want to be able to take my work home, so I need a PC since that's what I have at work"... After Windows 3.1 came out, the others all quickly petered out.

It's not that Windows is a "better" OS - in fact, it's FAR from a great one... But because it was pretty much the ONLY game in town from the 90's and early 2000's that was viable because of the huge installed base, and huge amount of software written for it over that time, most people didn't know anything else existed. Linux (still to this day) is too difficult to admin for the average consumer.

iPod-->iPhone have acted as gateways to get the general population to rediscover Mac and they're finding that "wow, there IS an alternative to Windows, and it's a really great one! And it works really well with my iPod and iPhone!"

THAT is why consumers are starting to move towards Mac - even with the higher prices and the slightly lower performance hardware (vs bleeding edge PC), people are moving away from PC and towards Mac... The customer service and support is second to none - compared with the CRAP you get when you buy a prebuilt PC from HP or Dell (again, most average consumers don't BUILD PC's like you and I do.) The designs of Apple products are sleek an elegant - not huge beige towers and tons of cables all over the place... They LOOK like furniture - not like something from a server room. That makes them more appealing to people to keep them out in the open in their homes.

So, again, while YOU might not find value in the Apple line and Apple way of doing things, there's an increasing number of people who do...

Apple is making HUGE inroads in businesses, and especially on campus - go walk around GaTech some time... Almost 1/2 of the incoming freshmen are carrying around Macbooks...

I had a really nice logical reply all typed out, but when I went to hit send, the database shit the bed and I am not re-typing it.

Does GSB run on an AT&T iPhone based server?

Just asking...

[rr_double_rr]

Yeah, seriously, what's the deal with that? Site was hard down to a database error for a good while and this isn't the first time it's happened.

[jkhonea]

Yeah, seriously, what's the deal with that? Site was hard down to a database error for a good while and this isn't the first time it's happened.

The GSB server is trying to tell Dave something about his responses. :crackup:

[SquireSCA]

The GSB server is trying to tell Dave something about his responses. :crackup:

My response was that the ecosystem is fine if you want to limit yourself by placing yourself into that box and staying there.

But I hate iTunes. I don't want to have my phone or media device limited to only synching to one PC. Maybe I want my phone to synch with both my laptop and my main PC? I don't want the majority of the web's video content blocked because I cannot support Flash. If I see Flash as bad or a security risk, allow me to simply disable the Flash plugin, don't go out of your way to prevent me from viewing websites the way they were intended.

Lots of little things like that... The Apple world is fine, there is harmony and it will cause your testicles to emit a glowing, healing light. I get that.

But at the same time, I don't want to have to go take out a mortgage to buy all the Apple products to create that little world. I want the devices that I want, let me decide how to use them...

If you think that sending pics via MMS was not as good, that's great. But its my ****ing phone, let me decide how I want to send pics. I hate iTunes, I hate having to buy apps to give me half-assed workarounds to do basic things like use my phone as a portable HD that is universally compatible with any PC, Linux box or Mac...

The iPhone was the best smartphone it its day. But Apple say on their asses too much, letting out minor updates and milking their lyal fanbase while the competition got off the ground, built a better mousetrap and took over the entire market with no signs of slowing.

If this was 2009, it would be a different argument. Despite the AT&T issue and some of the annoying limitations of the iPhone at that time, it was still the best smart phone on the market. I only ditched it because for work, the unreliability was inacceptable and there was no iPhone on another carrier.

But today, I cannot think of a single reason to get an iPhone when there are so many amazing devices available. There is nothing that an iPhone can do that a Droid cannot. But the same cannot be said in reverse.

If the iPhone meets your needs, or lets say you just plain prefer it, go for it. Never said that anyone shouldn't. But Apple dominated the market and lost that crown, and will never get it back. We all know that. And Apple right now owns the tablet market. And I think that it is a matter of time until it loses that.

When Google and Motorola design a tablet together with the OS rather than create the OS and give it to a manufacturer and watch them **** it up, I think the game is gonna change. And when that tablet becomes the benchmark in the Android lineup, other makers are gonna have to setp up their game or go the way of the Dodo...

[SpeedGeek]

Well, looks like one is going down in the PC world... And exiting the Tablet business as well...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-18/hp-said-to-be-near-10-billion-autonomy-takeover-spinoff-of-pc-business.html

Adios HP!

Apple just keeps climbing the computer sales charts (even without including the iPad in the figures.)

[SpeedGeek]

And can you EVER get a better arguement than "I want Flash!" (nevermind that it SUCKS BALLS and is a HORRIBLE proprietary technology that is grossly overused in the web world and is being superceded by HTML5...)

[jkhonea]

Dave, the problem is most of the time you can't make references to Apple users and Apple without being derogatory as hell. That's one of the biggest issues. You act like people that use Apple and Mac's are simplistic idiots, or at best, not intelligent. Simply because they use something you don't like.

[jkhonea]

And can you EVER get a better arguement than "I want Flash!" (nevermind that it SUCKS BALLS and is a HORRIBLE proprietary technology that is grossly overused in the web world and is being superceded by HTML5...)

And the fact that Adobe themselves have released their new authoring platform for animation based on HTML 5.

[SquireSCA]

And can you EVER get a better arguement than "I want Flash!" (nevermind that it SUCKS BALLS and is a HORRIBLE proprietary technology that is grossly overused in the web world and is being superceded by HTML5...)

It is currently the industry standard and it sucks to have half the websites missing large chunks and incomplete because Steve Jobs thinks he is God and knows best. He's an asshole, support the damned plugin and let users decide if they want to enable it or not.

It's that arrogance and close-mindedness that irritates me. It's not about the Flash itself, it is about them just making stupid decisions because of personal bias. MMS, copy and paste, etc... All basic, industry standard things that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table to provide...

And it isn't just flash... It's SD card support, larger screens actually useful for watching video, 4G, not having to rely on iTunes, the list goes on...

It was annoying as shit to try going to websites on the phone and half the time they don't work because "your browser does not support this plugin"... I don't care how it works under the hood, nobody does unless they are a programmer. We just want shit to work.

Now STFU and come out to Trivia tonight, Mike and Margo will be there as well.

[SquireSCA]

Dave, the problem is most of the time you can't make references to Apple users and Apple without being derogatory as hell. That's one of the biggest issues. You act like people that use Apple and Mac's are simplistic idiots, or at best, not intelligent. Simply because they use something you don't like.

Yeah, probably in much the same way that someone who had 3 consecutive lemons with Ford, whose girlfriend also had two lemons from Ford, would probably give up on them and have an attitude of "Ford sucks"...

[SpeedGeek]

Whatever, I give up trying to have a logical discussion with you on this because you just go back to "I WANT XYZ and I can't get it and that means APPLE SUCKS", when in reality, XYZ is on it's way out and isn't that important.

Just because they're trying to push a different way of doing things, a way that's actually BETTER for EVERYONE, doesn't mean it's crap... but I wouldn't expect a sales schlep like you to really understand the technical merits of one approach vs the other... All you care about is the brochure-ware... Enjoy your flash on your "big screen" (cough it's not THAT much bigger dude...) phone with a battery that can hardly make it through the day...

[SquireSCA]

Whatever, I give up trying to have a logical discussion with you on this because you just go back to "I WANT XYZ and I can't get it and that means APPLE SUCKS", when in reality, XYZ is on it's way out and isn't that important.

Just because they're trying to push a different way of doing things, a way that's actually BETTER for EVERYONE, doesn't mean it's crap... but I wouldn't expect a sales schlep like you to really understand the technical merits of one approach vs the other... All you care about is the brochure-ware... Enjoy your flash on your "big screen" (cough it's not THAT much bigger dude...) phone with a battery that can hardly make it through the day...


1) Its on its way out, finally. Not the case for the past 3 years.

2) Apple doesn't suck. The way they do a lot of things, does.

3) Taking away options and choices from the consumer, when they are industry standard and people are practically begging for them, isn't making anything better for anyone.

4) My battery lasts all day.

5) it is 35% larger than yours, while the phone itself is barely larger. That's significant.

[SpeedGeek]

It is currently the industry standard and it sucks to have half the websites missing large chunks and incomplete because Steve Jobs thinks he is God and knows best. He's an asshole, support the damned plugin and let users decide if they want to enable it or not.

It's an OLD standard... one on the way out (and should have been replaced years ago IMO). So, Apple can either be like MS, and do backwards compatibility forever, crippling their systems to support crap that is ancient and outdated, and as a result those old techs never go away even though there are better modern solutions because "Hey, everyone has Flash/MMS/whatever Support, so why write for this new standard when I can use the old one and reach everyone?" and then new standard dies from lack of use. OR Apple can say "F this, we're not supporting this old crap, there's a better way to do this, and we're only going to support that, and by not supporting the old way it will die faster and everyone will benefit from the growing use of the new one."

If all companies did things the way YOU want them to, we'd still be listening to Real-to-Real Tapes, driving Model T Fords, and using Bell Model 100 rotary dial phones...

Apple -first ones to drop floppy drives... Didn't seem to hurt them
Apple -First ones to drop DVD drives... doesn't seem to be hurting Mac Air + Mini sales at all..
Apple -first to drop Flash support... Funny, I seem to be able to hit all the websites I usually go to just fine... (ie, it's forced the big sites to convert to supporting HTML5 sooner rather than later.)

Deal with it...

[Todd]

Yeah, seriously, what's the deal with that? Site was hard down to a database error for a good while and this isn't the first time it's happened.we're not on a dedicated server, shit like that happens from time to time with hostmonster. Just the way it is.
.

[SquireSCA]

It's an OLD standard... one on the way out (and should have been replaced years ago IMO). So, Apple can either be like MS, and do backwards compatibility forever, crippling their systems to support crap that is ancient and outdated, and as a result those old techs never go away even though there are better modern solutions because "Hey, everyone has Flash/MMS/whatever Support, so why write for this new standard when I can use the old one and reach everyone?" and then new standard dies from lack of use. OR Apple can say "F this, we're not supporting this old crap, there's a better way to do this, and we're only going to support that, and by not supporting the old way it will die faster and everyone will benefit from the growing use of the new one."

If all companies did things the way YOU want them to, we'd still be listening to Real-to-Real Tapes, driving Model T Fords, and using Bell Model 100 rotary dial phones...

Apple -first ones to drop floppy drives... Didn't seem to hurt them
Apple -First ones to drop DVD drives... doesn't seem to be hurting Mac Air + Mini sales at all..
Apple -first to drop Flash support... Funny, I seem to be able to hit all the websites I usually go to just fine... (ie, it's forced the big sites to convert to supporting HTML5 sooner rather than later.)

Deal with it...

No really. I know that you see it as some noble pursuit to help mankind by Apple not supporting the features that people demand... I get that, if Steve Jobs says it, then it might as well be written on the stone tablets that Moses carried down the mountain...

But to those of us in the real world outside the Garden of Apple, we see it differently. I am all for advancing technology. But is expandable storage "outdated"? Is having a higher capacity battery "outdated"? A larger screen that makes it easier to watch videos? Is that outdated? Is having basic USB capabilities so that any PC can have access to the phone's contents regardless of OS or having iTunes, is that outdated?

Is being able to install alternative apps without jailbreaking, is that outdated?

So perhaps finally, Flash is on the way out. Fine. But for years and still today it is the most common web animation and video format, and so for years iPhone users have had to go to websites and have large chunks of content missing.

Apple must have felt that it was of some importance to the market, as they Photoshopped images of the iPad surfing the web, where they added in Flash content so that the pictures they used to show off the iPad would have large glaring holes in the pages with red X's on them... LOL

[SpeedGeek]

Sigh... Ok, FOR THE LAST TIME...

Expandable storage - WTF do you plan on storing on the phone that you need THAT much additional swappable storage? 32GB on a phone is a LOT of storage. 64GB on a tablet is a TON of storage... Now, granted there are those types that want their entire music collection with them at all times, but that's kind of insane on a phone...

Higher Capacity Battery - how the heck much more do you need??? If you have a battery that already lasts more than a day with moderate use, why would you need a bigger one? And worse, that bigger one now makes the phone larger and more bulky in your pocket, removes the ability to use most cases, etc.

A larger screen to watch videos - you're the ONLY person I know that insists on thinking you would want to watch long duration videos on your phone. Even your "big screen" is too damn small for reasonable video viewing IMO... On the iPad's 10" screen it's fine. On a 4" screen - too damn small for my liking. But since you seem to insist that you need a bigger screen , fine, I'll give you this one...

USB - sorry, but this just shows that you have ZERO understanding of how the security model of the iPhone works and why you will NEVER be able to have unfettered access to the file system on the phone. And this is also why Android devices, and jailbroken iPhones are having security issues left and right but non-jailbroken ones do not. The second you allow people to just run willy nilly thorugh the filesystem, you also allow malicious software to do the same, and now your nice expensive phone gets turned into a brick by some script kiddie in China who thinks it's fun to F over the stupid americans.

iTunes - fine, I agree it's not a stellar way of doing things, but once you get your head out of your butt and just accept it, it's not that bad. Additionally, as I said before, apps like GoodReader give you a way to do something similar to a full filesystem without having to do it through iTunes.

Alternative Apps - yeah, again, see the filesystem comments above... If it's so horrible, why are there multitudes more apps on the iOS platform than Android, and most of what's on Android is crapware (not that iOs doesn't have it's share too...) It's a tradeoff here..

Flash - sigh... It's SHIT. It has ALWAYS been SHIT. It was a stopgap created back in the mid-90's when there was no other option. Today there are far better options, but because there's so much out there that was built using Flash, it's going to take time for it to die. Does that mean we should just keep continuing to run that crap? What EXACTLY do you surf that requires flash that you can't hit with iOS???? I haven't found much, especially from any major sites.

And that thing about the photoshopped stuff - that was the ad agency doing it, not apple itself. Geesh...

So, show me how your beloved Android device is in ANY way superior just because it supports those checkbox features that you feel it has to have, that you claim the iPhone doesn't have today? Side by side comparison, I bet I can do everything you can do just fine. Visit major websites, do email, calendaring, make calls, listen to over 10 hours of music, watch videos, transfer data on and off WITHOUT using iTunes, etc.

[SquireSCA]

Sigh... Ok, FOR THE LAST TIME...

Expandable storage - WTF do you plan on storing on the phone that you need THAT much additional swappable storage? 32GB on a phone is a LOT of storage. 64GB on a tablet is a TON of storage... Now, granted there are those types that want their entire music collection with them at all times, but that's kind of insane on a phone...

I have 155gb of music. Tons of ripped DVD's, hundreds of TV episodes. etc... Additionally, I like to be able to use the device as a portable storage device, like a thumb drive over a universally standard USB cable with any PC running any OS. I don't want to have to put a luggage rack on my sportbike so that I can carry my phone, my iPad, my laptop, a 4G sharing device, etc... I don't want to have to take up half the table at bike night as I set up all my devices so that the Tilted Kilt looks like Wolff Blitzer's "Situation Room" on CNN. LOL

It isn't about having everything I own at all times. It is about having what I want, and if I want more, I can drop in another memory card rather than have to buy a new phone. It extends the convenience of the device. Like getting to a stop and taking the memory card out of the GoPro(MicroSD in an SD coverter) and dropping it into the phone to see the videos that I recorded while I eat lunch. Bottom line is that something as simple as an SD expansion slot is very useful, and is standard equipment on almost every phone EXCEPT for the iPhone and iPad.


Higher Capacity Battery - how the heck much more do you need??? If you have a battery that already lasts more than a day with moderate use, why would you need a bigger one? And worse, that bigger one now makes the phone larger and more bulky in your pocket, removes the ability to use most cases, etc.

Again, options. It's nice for when you are using the phone heavily and are not near a charging jack.


A larger screen to watch videos - you're the ONLY person I know that insists on thinking you would want to watch long duration videos on your phone. Even your "big screen" is too damn small for reasonable video viewing IMO... On the iPad's 10" screen it's fine. On a 4" screen - too damn small for my liking. But since you seem to insist that you need a bigger screen , fine, I'll give you this one...

I have the 4.3" and it is significantly larger and better than the puny 3.5" iPhone screen. I watch Netflix while I work out, and it is very watchable. Small yes, but a hell of a lot better than when I had the iPhone. 35% increase in screen size with the phone only being 8% larger is significant no matter how you slice it, and it still slides right into my pocket.


USB - sorry, but this just shows that you have ZERO understanding of how the security model of the iPhone works and why you will NEVER be able to have unfettered access to the file system on the phone. And this is also why Android devices, and jailbroken iPhones are having security issues left and right but non-jailbroken ones do not. The second you allow people to just run willy nilly thorugh the filesystem, you also allow malicious software to do the same, and now your nice expensive phone gets turned into a brick by some script kiddie in China who thinks it's fun to F over the stupid americans.

USB doesn't give me access to the onboard storage or system files. It gives me access to the SD card(s) like a thumb drive or portable HD. Your explanation shows that YOU have zero understanding of how things work.


iTunes - fine, I agree it's not a stellar way of doing things, but once you get your head out of your butt and just accept it, it's not that bad. Additionally, as I said before, apps like GoodReader give you a way to do something similar to a full filesystem without having to do it through iTunes.

So it sucks, but if I just try hard enough to ignore that it sucks and accept that it sucks then I guess it isn't that bad. I don't want an app that "sorta" gives me a workaround. I want seamless backups, I want my apps and settings restored from over the air as I drive home with my new phone. I believe in cutting the cord as much as possible and not relying on being connected physically to that particular PC to do a restore or something. I like having free WinAmp and dragging and dropping songs from any collection on any PC in my house to the DroidX icon and it just pushes the songs to the device over Wifi without me having to be plugged in or doing anything. I like going to any PC in the world and going to the Android Market and selecting an app and hitting install, and wherever my phone is, so long as it is on the Verizon network, it just pushes the app and installs it to the phone remotely.

There are just to many little things that all add up to a more flexible user experience.


Alternative Apps - yeah, again, see the filesystem comments above... If it's so horrible, why are there multitudes more apps on the iOS platform than Android, and most of what's on Android is crapware (not that iOs doesn't have it's share too...) It's a tradeoff here..

Yes, I am aware that I can go download and purchase a ton of apps to help plug all the holes and shortcomings in the Apple devices. My point is that you frequently HAVE to, that is what I find irritating. Most of the apps on both platforms such, they are just people hoping to make a couple bucks or be the next Angry Birds. Most of them are shit. In the case of the iPhone, many of them are to give you functions that the iOS lacks. Hell, wasn't 17 18 of the top 20 items on the iOS 5 most requested wish list already standard features of Android? I will find that article.


Flash - sigh... It's SHIT. It has ALWAYS been SHIT. It was a stopgap created back in the mid-90's when there was no other option. Today there are far better options, but because there's so much out there that was built using Flash, it's going to take time for it to die. Does that mean we should just keep continuing to run that crap? What EXACTLY do you surf that requires flash that you can't hit with iOS???? I haven't found much, especially from any major sites.

You are talking as a programmer, the smallest minority out there. Nobody cares if it is shit or not, we as consumers care that we go to tons of websites and cannot access content because the stupid phone doesn't support it. That ruins it for me, whether Flash is crappy or outdated or not. If most websites use it, then I need to support it for the time being.


And that thing about the photoshopped stuff - that was the ad agency doing it, not apple itself. Geesh...

Irrelevant, they had to because the websites looked like crap all chopped up with content obviously missing. Maybe it was the same ad agency that got nailed for false advertizing with the "fastest PC on earth" commercials? Maybe it was that same ad agency that used the photoshopped images of the Samsung tablet in a Europeon court to help get an injunction to stop their tablet sales, by making the device look more like an Apple device than it actually does?


So, show me how your beloved Android device is in ANY way superior just because it supports those checkbox features that you feel it has to have, that you claim the iPhone doesn't have today? Side by side comparison, I bet I can do everything you can do just fine. Visit major websites, do email, calendaring, make calls, listen to over 10 hours of music, watch videos, transfer data on and off WITHOUT using iTunes, etc.

I think it is obvious...

1) Larger screen for better browsing and video.
2) Whether you like Flash or not, most sites use it so it is good to support it for the time being.
3) Don't need to be tethered to a particular PC for mundane things.
4) Don't need to rely on iTunes.
5) Unlimited memory options for quick swapping of file collections.
6) universal USB support to work as a portable HD, convenience
7) Being able to synch musid with any PC, no limitations
8) Being able to install alternative apps from the community without jailbreaking or rooting
9) Easy ability to install custom ROM's, it's my device, let me decide how to run it


You can only do some of those things, and only after "patching" the OS with various apps to provide workarounds.

[SquireSCA]

Pretty much every one of these features has been standard on Android:
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Apple-iOS-5-Wish-List-10-MustHave-Features-122758/

Same here:
http://gigaom.com/apple/ios-5-wish-list/

Wash, rinse, repeat...
http://isource.com/2011/06/02/our-best-damn-ios-5-wish-list-ever/

So again, what are people demanding? What features are they hoping to get?

Answer: They want iOS 5 to offer more features, pretty much the same features that they already see as standard on Android.

[SpeedGeek]

Dude, there's ALWAYS going to be a wish list... I'm betting there's a wish list of things for Android as well...

Does that mean that the iOS 4 is in any way horrible or unusable? NO.

So again, I ask, in terms of actual usability, capability, what do you feel you have on the Android that I'm lacking on the iPhone that isn't just checkboxes on a brochure.. What do you think you are capable of doing that I can't do?

[SquireSCA]

Dude, there's ALWAYS going to be a wish list... I'm betting there's a wish list of things for Android as well...

Does that mean that the iOS 4 is in any way horrible or unusable? NO.

So again, I ask, in terms of actual usability, capability, what do you feel you have on the Android that I'm lacking on the iPhone that isn't just checkboxes on a brochure.. What do you think you are capable of doing that I can't do?

I did not say it was unusable. The links simply illustrated that there has been some clamouring for some particular features. I read over 20 articles on this, all asking for basically the same things. And almost all of them are standard features of Android.

So when you talk about how Apple does things the right way, my reply is simply that the market seems to think that future versions of iOS need to follow in the steps of Android, at least when it comes to features and functionality, that's all.

And I told you things that I can do that you cannot.

1) Don't need iTunes, I can synch my music, wirelessly, with any collection on any PC.
2) Seamless backups and restoring over the airwaves with nothing from me other than my Google login and password.
3) Being able to purchase multiple apps and push them to the phone instantly over the air, no wires, no being at my "base" PC
4) As my needs change, I can add more memory, or swap memory cards(hot swappable in fact)
5) The larger screen does make watching video better, while still barely being barely bigger than the iPhone and sliding easily into the pocket.
6) Whether you like Flash or not, having "crappy" code but being able to use the websites and watch the video or content is better than not being able to
7) ROM's, currently running Cyanogen and loving it.
8) I can take the MicroSD card out of my GoPro and toss it right into the phone for viewing, etc...
9) Universal USB access. No apps. No installing anything, no having to use Wifi, etc... Just plug the phone in to a Linux/OSX/Windows box and it just works.
10) Plug my phone in to any car stereo, whether it has iPod controls or not, all it needs is a USB port and I can plug in, charge, play music through the stereo, etc...

These are not check boxes. These are things that I am using, daily. These are things

[SquireSCA]

Next time you are sitting at a restaraunt with half a dozen electronic devices spread across the table, see if you can use all that computing power to help figure out why the girls are over talking to the guys with the Droids. :stirpot:

[SpeedGeek]

whatever, I give up, having any sort of conversation with you is like beating my head against a wall because you CONSTANTLY mix facts with feelings, twist words, revert to statements that were proven false 3 posts earlier, and seem to feel that every person in the market has the same needs as you and thus your needs are the only valid ones.

And NO, this DOESN'T mean you're RIGHT. It just means you're too F'ing hardheaded and annoying to try to have any sort of meaningful discussion with... Congradulations... You're now Sheldon on Big Bang Theory...

[SquireSCA]

whatever, I give up, having any sort of conversation with you is like beating my head against a wall because you CONSTANTLY mix facts with feelings, twist words, revert to statements that were proven false 3 posts earlier, and seem to feel that every person in the market has the same needs as you and thus your needs are the only valid ones.

And NO, this DOESN'T mean you're RIGHT. It just means you're too F'ing hardheaded and annoying to try to have any sort of meaningful discussion with... Congradulations... You're now Sheldon on Big Bang Theory...

You asked me to give examples, I did. You really have not been able to refute those benefits other than to say that Flash sucks, there are some apps that you can buy to sorta mimick to a limited extent the features you are lacking, and that you don't care personally about the other things that your phone cannot do.

All while completely ignoring the cry in the marketplace for a set of features that is almost exactly what Android already offers. People on the Apple side of the equation are clammoring for the OS to give them what Android has.

So why not just get an Android? If the things that you want are denied to you by your current vendor and another vendor already offers that and more, why not go to the other vendor that delivers what the market asks for?

I did.

I didn't stay brand loyal out of being a "fan" of something, or convince myself that certain things don't matter, or that I need to go out and spend more money on more hardware because each one is really good and one thing but crappy at others, rather than go find one device that is above average at most things....

I have been very specific saying what *my* needs are, and why *I* made certain decisions. And judging my the tons of articles I read on what people want to see in iOS 5, it appears that there are a shitload of Apple owners that agree with me, but that cannot set aside brand loyalty to stop waiting and just go get the product that already has all the features that they are asking for.

But if they did, then "they wouldn't have an iPhone" and their lives would have less meaning I guess... Whatever the commercials claim... ;-)

[MrBlah]

I cant wait till android hardware accelerates the UI on the phones, until then I cant stand using them

I think this next version will finally do it

[ramm]

I cant wait till android hardware accelerates the UI on the phones, until then I cant stand using them

I think this next version will finally do it

Nexus Prime is looking sexy.

[jkhonea]

Nexus Prime is looking sexy.

Not bad looking at all. Only thing that worries me is the talk of the 4.5" screen. That's bordering on too big.

[ramm]

Not bad looking at all. Only thing that worries me is the talk of the 4.5" screen. That's bordering on too big.

The latest is that it's a 4''

*rumors of course

[jkhonea]

That would be perfect. Have that on my Incredible 2.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

[SquireSCA]

I think that Apple is worried. Look at the onslaught of lawsuits they are launching, trying to keep Samsung from selling any tablets or smartphones in all of Europe. Going so far as Photoshoping the pictures of the Samsung devices to make them appear to be the same size as the Apple products and therefore "more similar"...

Apple needs to get back to innovating. From what I am reading, Google is sitting on a shitload of patents that Apple is violating and could drop the bomb on them if they chose to. Apple had the Smartphone market, and lost it, and despite gaining some marketshare, they are still losing ground to Android and will continue to. They will never take back that market, it is gone.

And now they are obviously worried about the same thing happening in the tablet market. In an attempt to stem the bleeding that is sure to hit that front, they are spending tens of millions of dollars suing anyone and anything that they can. Where they cannot win in the market, they will try to win in the court room. Its a shame that they feel they have to sink to such levels.

[SquireSCA]

And Mike, lets not forget the ability to customize the device. Tell me, do you just buy a PC and leave it exactly the way it comes out of the box? Or do you personalize it? Set it up in a way that makes it easier for you to use? Modify the machine to work the way that you prefer to work?

http://www.cyanogenmod.com/

I would think that as a geek, you would like that sorta stuff. That not being told, "This is the box, make yourself fit into it"...

It's not like this is rocket science. It does every single thing your current phone does, but it gives you expanded memory, more universal connectivity, better choice of applications to manage music and video collections, a much larger screen while barely being larger overall, etc... And, you can theme it, have access to widgets and real time information like you would have on a PC rather than just a slab of icons you can click one at a time... A lock screen that actually contains useful data so that you can see at a glance what is going on without having to unlock the phone and click on email, click on Messaging, click on calender, etc... I mean, the notification system of Apple is downright archaic...

Taking all the Apple vs Android crap out of the discussion for a moment, as a geek, I don't see how something like Android doesn't appeal to you. I know, "Dude, I just want to turn it on and have it work"...

It does. That's the point. It does work, and it works the way you choose it to, not the other way around. I have used both, extensively. And from a geek perspective, there is just so much more that you can do with Android. Apple is a pretty phone that does ok as a smart phone.

Android phones, the higher end ones, are almost more like pocket computers than smart phones. It baffles me how you wouldn't be into that. LOL

[MrBlah]

if you made a list of who's filing lawsuits against who, it would be pretty much every phone manufacture against apple, and vice versa

most of these patents are bullshit too, never shoulda been granted, way too much prior art

I prefer the iphone over all current android phones, mostly because android is not mature yet, and you can do all the stuff squire mentioned on an iphone, I do, and for the record both the iphone and android phones must be hacked to enable that stuff, you cant install a rom or a full kernel/rom like cyanogenmod without hacking your android phone first

[SquireSCA]

if you made a list of who's filing lawsuits against who, it would be pretty much every phone manufacture against apple, and vice versa

most of these patents are bullshit too, never shoulda been granted, way too much prior art

Most of these lawsuits are frivolous, but Apple is going overboard lately and it makes them look desperate.

Samsung's phones resemble the iPhone in the same way that the Honda Ridgeline resembles the Chevy Avalanche/Escalade EXT... which in turn borrowed from the Ford Explorer Sport-Trac, which borrowed from the Subaru Brat, the El Camino, etc...

But apparently Apple thinks that you can patent a rectangle with a beveled edge...

Hey, whatever they gotta do to keep from getting their ass handed to them in the tablet market like they did in only 2 years in the phone market...

[MrBlah]

nobody but squire is saying apple is getting anything handed to it other than fistfulls of dollars, every quarter is record sales, they had 24 billion in revenues last quarter, 6 billion was profit, 18 million iphones in one quarter

they dominate the upper end pc/laptop market thanks to all the iphone users that converted to mac users

20 quarters in a row apple has beat the industry average in computer sales growth


a lot of talk about the lawsuit, did you know who samsung's biggest customer is? Yep, apple

[SquireSCA]

nobody but squire is saying apple is getting anything handed to it other than fistfulls of dollars, every quarter is record sales, they had 24 billion in revenues last quarter, 6 billion was profit, 18 million iphones in one quarter

they dominate the upper end pc/laptop market thanks to all the iphone users that converted to mac users

20 quarters in a row apple has beat the industry average in computer sales growth


a lot of talk about the lawsuit, did you know who samsung's biggest customer is? Yep, apple

Never said they didn't make money. But they had the Smart phone market, and lost it, and despite sales they are falling further and further behind Android, and they are obviously not wanting a repeat of that with the tablet market, and who can blame them?

And Apple only "dominates the high end laptop($1000+) market, because their laptops are so much more expensive and more of their laptops fall into that range. But that doesn't mean that they sell more of them.

It's like saying that Porsche dominates the high end auto market... Does anyone think that they sell more cars or have more marketshare than Ford? No, because Ford doesn't sell any cars in that price range. But Ford sells more F150's in North America than any other model of car or truck worldwide.

So who has more marketshare? Well, I guess if you limit the scope to $100K+ and up, the Porsche 911 Turbo has "more marketshare"...

Ahhhh, I love the small of matketing spin in the morning! haha

[MrBlah]

But that doesn't mean that they sell more of them.


actually yes, it does mean they sell more of them, they sell more in the segments they are in than the other companies, who also sell in that range

in fact, they are now #4 in ALL market segments, including low end which they dont even produce

the list is now
HP 29 %
dell 22 %
apple 10 %

that's the top 3 for all computer sales

I know you hate apple, but they are growing hand over fist weither you admit it or not

[RogueElement]

actually yes, it does mean they sell more of them, they sell more in the segments they are in than the other companies, who also sell in that range

in fact, they are now #4 in ALL market segments, including low end which they dont even produce

the list is now
HP 29 %
dell 22 %
apple 10 %

that's the top 3 for all computer sales

I know you hate apple, but they are growing hand over fist weither you admit it or not

How are they #4 overall but #3 in that list?

[MrBlah]

they are #3 that was a typo

[RogueElement]

they are #3 that was a typo

Gotcha. I think what annoys me the most is how most of the Mac owners I know only use it for the basic email/web browsing/solitairing (is that a word?) tasks but go and tout how much better it is than a PC. Congratulations, you just spent $1400 on a piece of equipment that can be replaced by a $500 Thinkpad. Now, I'm not saying that it's all owners or that its a majority, but, from what I've noticed, there's a fair many people that have come to drink the koolaid.

[MrBlah]

that's all most people use a pc for, windows is ok, delete the shortcut to internet explorer, put chrome or something else in it's place, that alone will make it much more livable for most users

every time I go to my parents house I have to fix the windows pc, it gets old, I did get them onto a ipad and I have not had to fix that yet

[SquireSCA]

Gotcha. I think what annoys me the most is how most of the Mac owners I know only use it for the basic email/web browsing/solitairing (is that a word?) tasks but go and tout how much better it is than a PC. Congratulations, you just spent $1400 on a piece of equipment that can be replaced by a $500 Thinkpad. Now, I'm not saying that it's all owners or that its a majority, but, from what I've noticed, there's a fair many people that have come to drink the koolaid.

Because it is cool, it is a status symbol, which is what I have been saying. It's not like you can do things on a Mac that you cannot do on a PC. It is a Dell in a shiny case with a different OS.

OSX is nice, but it isn't worth the extra $500 worth of nice. Especially for someone like me that likes to game a lot.

[NiceGuysFinishLast]

Dave, there are instances where pros pretty much only use macs. When I was in printing, any editing was done on macs, and the final file we sent had to be done on a mac. It was explained to me why, but at the time I didn't understand, and at the current time, I don't care to. You're being as much of an anti-apple fanboi as you accuse everyone else of being apple fanbois. The sheldon comment made me :lol: a lot. I don't even understand why we're doing apple vs google right now, we should be discussing what google is going to do with Moto. GoogleTV?

[RogueElement]

Dave, there are instances where pros pretty much only use macs. When I was in printing, any editing was done on macs, and the final file we sent had to be done on a mac. It was explained to me why, but at the time I didn't understand, and at the current time, I don't care to. You're being as much of an anti-apple fanboi as you accuse everyone else of being apple fanbois. The sheldon comment made me :lol: a lot. I don't even understand why we're doing apple vs google right now, we should be discussing what google is going to do with Moto. GoogleTV?

So the reason wasn't important enough to pay attention to or remember? I can see why they were used back in the 32bit Win2k days, but would be interested to hear why that would be true today.

[SpeedGeek]

And not to mention, HP is getting out of that business altogether, so unless somebody buys HP's PC business outright, Apple is going to move up to #2 (Dell #1)..

The fact is that in the PC Wintell market, the margins are razor thing, <5%, for the final seller... Intel and MS make nearly all the money, HP and Dell make squat... Apple on the other hand only goes after the high end, and because of their control over the end-to-end, they make more like 25% profit on every unit sold.

Dave, I've used more Operating Systems over the years than you can probably name. I also have a Computer Science degree from one of the top Engineering schools in the country. BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY that i know more about this stuff than you'll EVER know, not only from a user perspective, but from a "how it works internally" one. Just to name a few:

VAX
CP/M
DOS 2.1 - 6.11
Windows 3.0-7.0
IRIX
APUX
HPUX
probably 20 different versions of Linux (including Slackware 0.1 off FLOPPY)
AmigaDos
C64
OS/2 2.0-4.0
SunOS4+Solaris5-10

Android is fine, but immature, and not controlled well enough - too much fractionalization for my taste. Does that mean I'll never buy an Android phone? No. But right now, I have too much money linked with iOS (apps, accessories, etc.) that switching to Android makes no sense for me. Plus I don't have the issues with AT&T that you have - I see them all as equally shitty. I find every single Android phone I've ever been handed to have a HORRIBLY inconsistent UI, WAY too much BS going on (animated background, animated icons, etc - looking like some 12 yr old girl's MySpace page), and until recently, HORRIBLE battery life.

I also am NOT a fan of all the different companies putting out their own customized versions. If they all used a standard touch UI, or standard widgets, etc. then fine. But that only just recently happened. There should be ONE version of Android - what Google puts out. PERIOD. No customization by the individual companies.

Finally, I want it to just work - not spend all my time dicking around loading this ROM and that ROM and this patch and this hack to make it do something else. I just want it to turn on and work, let me easily buy a new song or app, and that's it. SOME of us don't work at home and don't have time to be dicking around hunting for the new hacked ROM some kid in Armenia put out that allows you to do XYZ (nevermind that it's probably stealing your credit card number every time you buy something online through your phone...)

And as far as Apple suing people - 1) as others said above, everyone is suing everyone else. It's stupid, but that's the way it is. 2) You know damn well that if you DON'T assert your patents, they effectively become null and void. So they HAVE to sue or risk having zero rights to stuff they own patents on.

I think they're mostly pissed with Samsung because Samsung as one of their parts suppliers for iPhone and iPad, they got access to Apple designs for the iPhone and iPad early and largely have made very VERY similar devices, using Android as the OS. So, of COURSE they're going to sue "Hey, we gave you access to information and you just copied us!" You'd do the same.

[SpeedGeek]

Gotcha. I think what annoys me the most is how most of the Mac owners I know only use it for the basic email/web browsing/solitairing (is that a word?) tasks but go and tout how much better it is than a PC. Congratulations, you just spent $1400 on a piece of equipment that can be replaced by a $500 Thinkpad. Now, I'm not saying that it's all owners or that its a majority, but, from what I've noticed, there's a fair many people that have come to drink the koolaid.

For the general population ,that might be true... However, that is NOT the case in most professional computing environments. Where I work at Lockheed, nearly 1/2 the staff is on Macs (we get to choose what we want.) At Google, you only get to choose between Linux or Mac, you have to give a DAMN good reason to need Windows. etc.

Why do so many high end techies go for Mac? Because it's all the nice UI of Windows (better in many cases) coupled with the higher power underpinnings of UNIX, without the "wild wild west" nature of Linux.

[SpeedGeek]

Gotcha. I think what annoys me the most is how most of the Mac owners I know only use it for the basic email/web browsing/solitairing (is that a word?) tasks but go and tout how much better it is than a PC. Congratulations, you just spent $1400 on a piece of equipment that can be replaced by a $500 Thinkpad. Now, I'm not saying that it's all owners or that its a majority, but, from what I've noticed, there's a fair many people that have come to drink the koolaid.

Also, I think a LOT of it is that people are just looking for something different - something that isn't Windows. Too many of us have grown up for too many years living with version after version of Windows, being disappointed with the OS for various reasons... How many times have we had to reinstall Windows because it gets horribly slow after 6 month? Because it gets so bloated with CRAPWARE? How many times have we had the registry get corrupted so the machine won't boot, or gotten BSODs? etc.

The fact is, in a lot of ways, owning a Mac is just a LOT simpler/easier prospect. There's no BIOS to screw around with, everything is just plug and play, you don't have to go to 5 different places to get the drivers for your hardware, it largely does all the system administration itself. And there's a lot more standardization in the look and feel of the apps on it than you see on Windows. You don't see huge UI changes from one version of OSX to the next - just tweaks. Put somebody who only knows Windows XP in front of a Windows 7 machine and they're lost, can't find settings, can't adjust things.. Why? Because MS insists on making HUGe changes to the UI in every version, causing a lot of time to be spent relearning how to do everything.

[MrBlah]

there is no better unix desktop than OSX, linux is ok, but no where near as polished as osx is

I run osx on dell hardware, because I'm a cheap bastard

[SquireSCA]

Dave, there are instances where pros pretty much only use macs. When I was in printing, any editing was done on macs, and the final file we sent had to be done on a mac. It was explained to me why, but at the time I didn't understand, and at the current time, I don't care to. You're being as much of an anti-apple fanboi as you accuse everyone else of being apple fanbois. The sheldon comment made me :lol: a lot. I don't even understand why we're doing apple vs google right now, we should be discussing what google is going to do with Moto. GoogleTV?

Macs were the computer of choice in that niche market many years ago, not because of the hardware, but because the software packages were written for the Mac first and the Mac versions of the software were better. It really wasn't about the hardware.

And that situation has changed anyway, Windows machines started to dominate in that market as well.

[SlimDizzleATL]

Macs were the computer of choice in that niche market many years ago, not because of the hardware, but because the software packages were written for the Mac first and the Mac versions of the software were better. It really wasn't about the hardware.

And that situation has changed anyway, Windows machines started to dominate in that market as well.

Says who?

[SquireSCA]

Says who?

It has been the trend for awhile. As Windows dominated the desktop market in general, there was more money to be made catering to that crowd. Additionally, I read an article a couple years ago about how the cost of ownership and upgrades over the years is actually more expensive for the Mac side of things, so a lot of companies were switching to PC's to save costs.

In the end, there is very little difference between a Mac and a Windows box. They have 99% identical hardware. The difference is the OS and little else.

I priced out a top of the line Dell XPS 15" laptop with almost identical specs to a MacBook Pro yesterday.

Dell - $1500
Apple - $2200

$700 price premium for a marginally better OS? Not worth it IMHO.

[jkhonea]

Dave, Mac is still the computer of choice in graphic arts. Pretty much every graphic artists and graphic arts company I know is on a Mac and absolutely will not switch.

[SquireSCA]

Dave, Mac is still the computer of choice in graphic arts. Pretty much every graphic artists and graphic arts company I know is on a Mac and absolutely will not switch.

According to what I have read over past years, there are only a few little niche areas where it holds an advantage, and mostly that is because of a particular software package or two. Like I said, today, the difference between a Mac and a PC is the OS. Your $2200 MacBook is a Dell with a really expensive OS loaded onto it...

[SlimDizzleATL]

Dont know if this is still the trend as I havent bought/built a PC in over 4 years, but PC's become obsolete a lot faster than Mac's. I have my 3 year old MacBook still running like the day I bought it and still runs programs. I felt when i was using a PC, when I thought I had a top end box, there would be some software or game that would come out that I couldnt run. Just my experience I guess.

You're right about one thing. The hardware is 99% the same. But I'd rather have a Mac because it works and I dont have to work as hard to use it.

Not sure how this turned from a Google/Motorola thread to PC vs Mac....but whatevs.

[MrBlah]

when did dell start making aluminum body pc/laptops?

dont get me wrong, I own mostly dells, but in no way shape or form are they anywhere near apple quality

[SpeedGeek]

You're also getting WILDLY superior customer service / warranty (you call them, spend < 5 minutes on hold and speak to an honest to god AMERICAN who HAS A CLUE, not some Indian or Pakistani 1/2 a world away who claims his name is "Bob" yet can barely speak english and has to read from a script on the computer, making you go through asinine steps to troubleshoot your problem that have NOTHING to do with the problem..

You're getting superior quality control on the parts going into it...

You're getting innovations like magsafe Power cables, longer life integrated batteries, and MUCH quieter cooling solutions.

Side by side the specs might look identical, but the build quality on a Macbook vs a Dell are night and day.

[RogueElement]

there is no better unix desktop than OSX, linux is ok, but no where near as polished as osx is

I run osx on dell hardware, because I'm a cheap bastard

But you have to jump through hoops to get OSX to work on non-Mac hardware. And then its not supported by Apple. Its far too restrictive in that sense. If I want to install Win7/Debian/Ubuntu on a PC I built, I can. If I want to put OSX on it, I've got to put together a Hackintosh disc collection.

[MrBlah]

But you have to jump through hoops to get OSX to work on non-Mac hardware. And then its not supported by Apple. Its far too restrictive in that sense. If I want to install Win7/Debian/Ubuntu on a PC I built, I can. If I want to put OSX on it, I've got to put together a Hackintosh disc collection.

if you think a 1 click install is complicated, your probably in the wrong forum, it's easier to install osx than it is to root an android phone now

I do it with a usb boot drive, lion will boot and install and work on most pc's

have you ever had to deal with microsoft tech support? Windows is not really supported anywhere either, the answer you get when you call dell is "reinstall disk" and I've spent enough hours on the phone with microsoft to know that support there isnt much better

For ease of install and go, it's windows 7, osx, then linux, I just installed linux tonight, fedora 15, why the hell did they remove the minimize/maximize buttons? I swear gnome developers are f'in idiots when it comes to UI features

[RogueElement]

if you think a 1 click install is complicated, your probably in the wrong forum, it's easier to install osx than it is to root an android phone now

I do it with a usb boot drive, lion will boot and install and work on most pc's

have you ever had to deal with microsoft tech support? Windows is not really supported anywhere either, the answer you get when you call dell is "reinstall disk" and I've spent enough hours on the phone with microsoft to know that support there isnt much better

For ease of install and go, it's windows 7, osx, then linux, I just installed linux tonight, fedora 15, why the hell did they remove the minimize/maximize buttons? I swear gnome developers are f'in idiots when it comes to UI features

I tried once a couple years ago and it was a royal pain. Granted, I imagine iboot made it a ton easier, but having to deal with BIOS tweaks, installing kext editor, and bootloader was a pain in the ass. I rooted a Thunderbolt back when it was a manual 412383 step process. I'm not new to complicated installs.

You essentially void your warranty the moment you do it. I've had to call MS a few times for Enterprise deployments, and they are far more helpful than what you'll get calling for home support. MSDN enrollment has its perks.

[MrBlah]

void the warranty on what? Nobody cares what software you install on your hardware

I never called MS for home support, only for federal/enterprise support

[RogueElement]

void the warranty on what? Nobody cares what software you install on your hardware

I never called MS for home support, only for federal/enterprise support

What I'm saying is, Apple won't support it since it's not on Mac hardware, which is what they require for you to install OSX. Sure, there may be a 1-click for it, but just because you can easily install it to a PC, does not mean that it was their intention for you to do so. And if you buy a Dell laptop and put OSX on it, then try to call Dell for support 3 months down the road because something is acting oddly, they aren't going to help you either.

[SquireSCA]

I tried once a couple years ago and it was a royal pain. Granted, I imagine iboot made it a ton easier, but having to deal with BIOS tweaks, installing kext editor, and bootloader was a pain in the ass. I rooted a Thunderbolt back when it was a manual 412383 step process. I'm not new to complicated installs.

You essentially void your warranty the moment you do it. I've had to call MS a few times for Enterprise deployments, and they are far more helpful than what you'll get calling for home support. MSDN enrollment has its perks.

I installed OSX awhile back and used it exclusively for several months. It was ok, but in the end it wasn't any better than Windows. It didn't actually do anything that Windows doesn't already do. In the end, I went back to Windows so I could play my games and didn't miss OSX at all. The only thing it had going for it was that it was different and bragging rights, IMHO.

[TarzanMan]

The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with Mac desktop computers. They run decently. Tad pricey and usually less software available, but that happens.

Mac users, on the other hand are a growing problem. Lots of different types of people own Macs: grandmothers, designers, coffee shop hipsters, soccer moms, etc.... the things that most of these people have in common are that they:
1. Are typically not technologically savvy consumers (exceptions do exist)
2. Absolutely will not shut the f*** up about their Mac or their iDevice

Let me speak for those of us who have used Macs in the past, but choose microsoft out of preference/habit/price/availability.....

We are glad that you like your device from Apple, Inc., but if you wanted to be cool/hip/counter-culture, then:
1. Find DeLorean
2. Speed up to 88 mph and travel back in time to 1994
3. Use Mac (and be happy)
4. After you are done fawning, get help (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-19/tech/apple.religion_1_apple-store-apple-employees-brains?_s=PM:TECH)

[SquireSCA]

The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with Mac desktop computers. They run decently. Tad pricey and usually less software available, but that happens.

Mac users, on the other hand are a growing problem. Lots of different types of people own Macs: grandmothers, designers, coffee shop hipsters, soccer moms, etc.... the things that most of these people have in common are that they:
1. Are typically not technologically savvy consumers (exceptions do exist)
2. Absolutely will not shut the f*** up about their Mac or their iDevice

Let me speak for those of us who have used Macs in the past, but choose microsoft out of preference/habit/price/availability.....

We are glad that you like your device from Apple, Inc., but if you wanted to be cool/hip/counter-culture, then:
1. Find DeLorean
2. Speed up to 88 mph and travel back in time to 1994
3. Use Mac (and be happy)
4. After you are done fawning, get help (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-19/tech/apple.religion_1_apple-store-apple-employees-brains?_s=PM:TECH)

Amen.

While some of my dislikes have to do with how Apple does things, it is even more about how the average Apple person acts. Being that Apple is marketed and sold as a status symbol, it seems that every owner wants to make sure that everyone knows about it and can give them the props that they paid for.

Apple makes a decent computer for people with basic needs and who aren't very technically savvy. As Mike said, it's perfect for his parents because they are nearly idiot-proof. But the average power user might want something more, and so they choose Linux or Windows. Or Android for that matter.

Not that there are not exceptions to every rule, but the generalities exist for sure.

So far Android users have shown lists of features and options that they can do or choose from, that Apple users cannot. So far, no list has been posted showing what Apple can do that Android cannot.

[SquireSCA]

And just in case people don't click the link to see the article, allow me to post it, as it is funny, and apparently there is some degree of science to it...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-19/tech/apple.religion_1_apple-store-apple-employees-brains?_s=PM:TECH

Apple triggers 'religious' reaction in fans' brains, report says

May 19, 2011|By Mark Milian, CNN
http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif

Next time Grandma asks why you're going to the mall on Sunday morning instead of church, tell her you're going to Apple Chapel.

For Apple fans, the brand triggers a reaction in the brain that's not unlike that of religious devotees, according to a BBC documentary series that cites neurological research.

The neuroscientists ran a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) test on an Apple fanatic and discovered that images of the technology company's gadgets lit up the same parts of the brain as images of a deity do for religious people, the report says.

At product launches, Apple store employees cheer for the first customers to buy the company's latest gadgets.

The first episode of the documentary shows Apple employees "whipped up into some sort of crazy, evangelical frenzy" at the recent opening of an Apple store in London.
Observers and Apple critics have long accused fans of the tech company of taking their infatuation to an extreme.

People have gone to great lengths to prove their love of Apple with tattoos, bumper stickers and home shrines to outmoded Mac computers. Apple's cult-like following was highlighted in a 2009 documentary called "Macheads."

A blog, aptly titled Cult of Mac, wrote on Thursday about Oakland, California, resident Gary Allen's cross-country pilgrimage to Apple's first store in Virginia to celebrate the retail chain's 10th anniversary this week.

In speeches, Pope Benedict XVI has said technology consumption poses a threat to religion and the Roman Catholic church. The holy leader told a Palm Sunday crowd last month that technology cannot replace God.

However, apparently it may inspire god-like devotion
--------------------------------------------------------

It is what I have been saying for years. Apple sells status to Mac Users. It's not about tech, features, power, etc... It's about ego and emotions. That's what they sell you. Buy an Apple product and you are special. Watch their commercials, see the adoration that Apple fans have when talking about it.

Windows users, or Android users can be fanbois as well, but for the most part, it is a more logical approach. They can at least list reasons, features and a logical argument as to why they prefer it.

I think it is very interesting how an MRI shows how a product like a phone can trigger certain parts of the brain like that, and how closely the mechanism itself mimics a religious experience, which is also not based on logic or reality, but rather emotion.

[MrBlah]

I'm a windows system administrator, have been for 20 years, with some unix servers thrown in for fun

you get one guess what "windows" triggers in my brain

windows is great job security though

[RogueElement]

I'm a windows system administrator, have been for 20 years, with some unix servers thrown in for fun

you get one guess what "windows" triggers in my brain

windows is great job security though

I've only really had problems with IIS, ISA, and Exchange. Windows as an OS, typically speaking, doesn't really give me many problems.

[SquireSCA]

I've only really had problems with IIS, ISA, and Exchange. Windows as an OS, typically speaking, doesn't really give me many problems.

No, me either and I have run just about every version of Windows since 1993. The issues I had, were induced by me, like overclocking a CPU from 500Mhz to 908Mhz and it crashing and corrupting something.

That said, I have had a stock system running OSX or Linux get fatal errors and lock up on me as well.

I even liked Vista. Never had a problem with it. Only people I heard complaining were people that simply heard that "it sucks" from other people that didn't know any better and just repeated it. I used it for 2 years, never had a single issue. I would have to reboot it every couple months when I installed a new driver or something, but other than that my machines are on 24/7 with no issues.

It's like bashing Microsoft or PC's is like bashing "The Man" or "The Establishment"... In CPU's for the longest time, it was cool to be an AMD fan and bash Intel, even though AMD only made a better CPU for a very short window of time. But by being an AMD fan, you went "against the grain", you were different, you were somehow "in the know"...

Apple and MS is no different. Apple is the underdog and Windows is the Evil Empire. And Apple caters to that "make me different and special for having purchased a certain brand name" crowd, just as Harley Davidson does.

[RogueElement]

Driver support for Vista was pretty abyssmal, prone to memory leaks, and was a resource hog to the point that a middle of the road laptop struggled to run more than a couple of programs at the same time. The big problem was that PC manufacturers dumped it on so many boxes that really didn't have the specs to handle it well.

[SquireSCA]

Driver support for Vista was pretty abyssmal, prone to memory leaks, and was a resource hog to the point that a middle of the road laptop struggled to run more than a couple of programs at the same time. The big problem was that PC manufacturers dumped it on so many boxes that really didn't have the specs to handle it well.

Yeah, I tossed it on a quad-core system with 6GB of RAM and a good video card. In fact, I am still running that same PC today but with Windows 7 on it. First PC that I have ever had for this long, but until it stops playing games well, I won't upgrade it. I want to wait until there are 8-core or at least cost effective dual quad-core platforms available before I upgrade. Dump in something like that with 12GB or more of RAM and I will be set for another 2+ years and won't have to worry about upgrading.

Windows 7 is great, and after running OSX Leopard and OpenSuse 11.3 I can say that the UI differences, performance and stability between them are all minimal.

[MrBlah]

I have to use vista at work, And i hate it

I have ran all versions of windows back to 8088 floppy disk version 1.0 in the 80's

I don't buy into all that image crap, I run what works best

At my house it's
7 for games
Osx for productivity

[SquireSCA]

I have to use vista at work, And i hate it

I have ran all versions of windows back to 8088 floppy disk version 1.0 in the 80's

I don't buy into all that image crap, I run what works best

At my house it's
7 for games
Osx for productivity

So your Windows 7 box that can run modern games, which are one of the most resource intense and demanding apps that you can run on a home PC, can't run Photoshop, Word and Internet, forcing you to run OSX in order to do just normal generic stuff?

[SpeedGeek]

I have to use vista at work, And i hate it

I have ran all versions of windows back to 8088 floppy disk version 1.0 in the 80's

I don't buy into all that image crap, I run what works best

At my house it's
7 for games
Osx for productivity


Yup, pretty much the same here. I only boot into Windows if I'm trying to play a Windows game that won't play on OSX or on OSX under Parallels.

Dave - Can you do that stuff on Windows 7? Yes, but often not as nicely. Some of us just prefer the OSX UI and way of doing things, so we prefer to stay in that environment as much as possible. If you don't, that's fine, but there are those of us who prefer the OSX way over the Windows way, and not just because it's different, but because it fits our use pattern better.

[MrBlah]

Windows is a cluttered mess with it's registry

I like to wipe out emy game box every 6 months, that really wrecks my productivity, the menus in apps on windows are also a mess

On osx/Linux/unix the app settings are in a users folder, it makes backups a breeze and the system does not get slower and Buggy over time. In osx menu's are standardized and much easier to use on most apps

It also plug/plays better with stuff like printers, if that changes I will switch to another desktop App

I'm not happy with win7 as my prod desktop, tried it and removed it

I ran Linux as my desktop for the dark years of xp/vista

[SquireSCA]

Windows is a cluttered mess with it's registry

I like to wipe out emy game box every 6 months, that really wrecks my productivity, the menus in apps on windows are also a mess

On osx/Linux/unix the app settings are in a users folder, it makes backups a breeze and the system does not get slower and Buggy over time. In osx menu's are standardized and much easier to use on most apps

It also plug/plays better with stuff like printers, if that changes I will switch to another desktop App

I'm not happy with win7 as my prod desktop, tried it and removed it

I ran Linux as my desktop for the dark years of xp/vista

I never deal with the registry. My stuff just seems to work. Not sure what you are doing wrong...

[MrBlah]

Meh good for u

[SpeedGeek]

Not to mention, that if you want to do a clean upgrade / install, the migration tools are STUPID easy to use - can do a clean install, and restore back only the files + applications you want to pull into the new install from your time machine backup.

Adding and removing applications (ok, well, at least the purely OSX ones, not so much for ones that install from stuff like MacPorts) is SUPER frickin easy and VERY clean because apps are contained in a bundle - not all over the OS like in Windows... No crap left over in a registry, no DLL's from programs long ago deleted, etc. You just drag/drop the new app into the Application's folder to install it, or drag it from there to the trash can to remove it. Done. Simple. CLEAN.

[SquireSCA]

Not to mention, that if you want to do a clean upgrade / install, the migration tools are STUPID easy to use - can do a clean install, and restore back only the files + applications you want to pull into the new install from your time machine backup.

Adding and removing applications (ok, well, at least the purely OSX ones, not so much for ones that install from stuff like MacPorts) is SUPER frickin easy and VERY clean because apps are contained in a bundle - not all over the OS like in Windows... No crap left over in a registry, no DLL's from programs long ago deleted, etc. You just drag/drop the new app into the Application's folder to install it, or drag it from there to the trash can to remove it. Done. Simple. CLEAN.

Mike, you do realize that Windows has a very similar backup and restore procedure, right?

For someone who in the past has claimed that they hate when an OS forces you to do it their way, that you prefer to do things how and when you want to do them, you do seem enamoured of a system that completely forces you into their way of doing things and holding your hand the entire way.

I dunno, I install an app, then I delete it. If I need to, I click and delete the directory it was on.

If you want simplicity or an noob-friendly OS, I agree with you, OSX is the bomb, hence why your mom uses it.

But some of us can handle installing or uninstalling an app the old fashioned way, but clicking "Install" or "Uninstall"... ;-)

[MrBlah]

I've not seen anything like that for windows, what is it called?

osx is basically linux/unix but it works without living in terminal, that's why system folks like myself like it

as for your rants about installing/uninstalling, who cares? I'm not sure what your trying to point out, it's easy to install/uninstall on both

[SpeedGeek]

I wasn't talking about backup... I was talking about selectively transfering your installed applications + documents from your backup (or from your old hard drive) to your new install of the OS... That you can NOT do on Windows, (at least not built in, there are tools out there to help you migrate stuff over but it RARELY works right for applications...)

Maybe it's because I want to actually GET STUFF DONE with my computer and not spend all my time administrating it - hunting for drivers from 10 different places, updating my virus protection every day, having to scan the machine for spyware all the time, having old DLL's and shit sitting around, etc.

Hey, if you want to stay in Windows, by all means, by my guest.. When you're ready to graduate to a MODERN, scalable OS, where you can spend your time USING it instead of administrating it, come on over to OSX land.

[RogueElement]

I wasn't talking about backup... I was talking about selectively transfering your installed applications + documents from your backup (or from your old hard drive) to your new install of the OS... That you can NOT do on Windows, (at least not built in, there are tools out there to help you migrate stuff over but it RARELY works right for applications...)

Maybe it's because I want to actually GET STUFF DONE with my computer and not spend all my time administrating it - hunting for drivers from 10 different places, updating my virus protection every day, having to scan the machine for spyware all the time, having old DLL's and shit sitting around, etc.

Hey, if you want to stay in Windows, by all means, by my guest.. When you're ready to graduate to a MODERN, scalable OS, where you can spend your time USING it instead of administrating it, come on over to OSX land.

You do realize that speaking in such exaggerated tones does nothing to champion your side of this debate, right?

[SpeedGeek]

See, it doesn't really matter, because knowing Dave as I do, there's no way he'll every change his mind, even if I beat him over the head with the truth. He's going to do what he wants to do, so fine... I really don't care. Windows does what he wants (play games) so fine, he can run Windows.... Of course, so can I, I just don't boot into it very often...Little need except to play the latest games.

I DO however get rather annoyed when I know more about this stuff, and have the credentials to prove it, than 99.9% of the people in here, and get called a "fanboy" just because I gave OSX a go, learned about its strengths and weaknesses vs Windows and other options, and have chosen that as my OS of choice (as have MANY other professionals in the field). The problem is, I can't go into details like why the kernel in OSX is better than Windows with most people on here because they haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, and don't know enough about algorithms and data structures and multithreaded architectures to have any sort of intelligent debate... (and what's worse is when they THINK they do, but don't.)

As I've said before, if Windows does what you want, FINE, keep using it. For an increasing number of people though, another viable option has become available and is being discovered to be quite usable and in many ways more suited to peoples needs than Windows has been. That option is OSX and Mac (or for some Linux). Maybe they get it for what you feel are stupid reasons, but in the end, the reality is, THEY have to be happy with THEIR purchase, and the reason they (and I) comment and defend that purchase is because we truly ARE happy, much more so than we ever were with Windows. That doesn't mean we're gloating or trying to show off, we're trying to make you realize just how much happier we are and only wish to inform you so you might be willing to give it as try as well.

Honestly, before I got my Macbook back in 2007, I was a long time Mac hater.... I had to work on/admin a cluster of them while in college, working as a user assistant at GaTech. I hated them. They were slow, used funky disk formats, the horrible single button mouse, etc. But in 2007 when I was looking for a new laptop, a good friend convinced me to give one a try - he and all of his co-workers were using Macs at work and at home and really loved them. I figured "WTF, if I hate it, I can just load Windows on it."

Those first 2 weeks of OSX ownership were beyond frustrating - having to relearn how to do everything in the Mac way. But little by little, as I got the hang of it, I just started really loving the interface and finding that the OS was making me actually ENJOY computing again, was powerful in so many ways (automation scripts, applescript built in, Java applications treated as first class applications (I'm a Java programmer by trade), and I had all the strong Unix underpinnings if I needed them. The full development tool suite included for free...) I was hooked.

A year later that same friend offered me his older Mac mini. After dealing with trying to support my mom from 1000 miles away, who knows NOTHING about computers and routinely called to drive me nuts to walk her through everything over the phone, I jumped at the chance. I can count the number of times she's had to call me with questions on 1 hand since I gave it to her.



And besides, wouldn't the world be a little boring if everything was all on just a single OS, no choice, no options, no different ideas of how computing should be done? Look how much Windows has evolved in the last 10 years alone (Windows ME/2000-->XP-->Vista-->7) and try to tell me it would have evolved as much if it weren't for Apple and OSX as competition. Do you really think there'd even be an Android right now if it wasn't for the iPhone? Maybe, but it would look and work VERY differently....

[MrBlah]

Squire, what backup program in windows ? I need to back my wifes up, like time machine does for my Mac

Last time I tried windows backup it could not do it without lots of hoops and it could not do a reload restore like time machine

On my Linux laptops I keep a script of the apps I use and I just back up my home folder, very simple, a format & reload only takes as long as apt/yum take to download my apps again

[SquireSCA]

I've not seen anything like that for windows, what is it called?

osx is basically linux/unix but it works without living in terminal, that's why system folks like myself like it

as for your rants about installing/uninstalling, who cares? I'm not sure what your trying to point out, it's easy to install/uninstall on both

"Windows Easy Transfer", but it has gone by other names in other versions. It's a migration tool to move files, programs, settings, etc... from one computer to another, or when you install the OS to a new machine.

And none of the top Linux distros require you to live in a Terminal any more. Hasn't been that way for awhile. If I was not a gamer, I would be running Linux right now. Free, fast, secure, updated regularly and a lot of the widgets and eye candy blows OSX and W7 away. I ran OpenSuse as my laptop OS until I got my new job and had to install Windows as they are a MS Shop...

[SquireSCA]

You do realize that speaking in such exaggerated tones does nothing to champion your side of this debate, right?

But it does drive home how out of touch the average Apple fanatic is when they actually believe that that is how things work.

[SquireSCA]

See, it doesn't really matter, because knowing Dave as I do, there's no way he'll every change his mind, even if I beat him over the head with the truth. He's going to do what he wants to do, so fine... I really don't care. Windows does what he wants (play games) so fine, he can run Windows.... Of course, so can I, I just don't boot into it very often...Little need except to play the latest games.

I DO however get rather annoyed when I know more about this stuff, and have the credentials to prove it, than 99.9% of the people in here, and get called a "fanboy" just because I gave OSX a go, learned about its strengths and weaknesses vs Windows and other options, and have chosen that as my OS of choice (as have MANY other professionals in the field). The problem is, I can't go into details like why the kernel in OSX is better than Windows with most people on here because they haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, and don't know enough about algorithms and data structures and multithreaded architectures to have any sort of intelligent debate... (and what's worse is when they THINK they do, but don't.)

As I've said before, if Windows does what you want, FINE, keep using it. For an increasing number of people though, another viable option has become available and is being discovered to be quite usable and in many ways more suited to peoples needs than Windows has been. That option is OSX and Mac (or for some Linux). Maybe they get it for what you feel are stupid reasons, but in the end, the reality is, THEY have to be happy with THEIR purchase, and the reason they (and I) comment and defend that purchase is because we truly ARE happy, much more so than we ever were with Windows. That doesn't mean we're gloating or trying to show off, we're trying to make you realize just how much happier we are and only wish to inform you so you might be willing to give it as try as well.

Honestly, before I got my Macbook back in 2007, I was a long time Mac hater.... I had to work on/admin a cluster of them while in college, working as a user assistant at GaTech. I hated them. They were slow, used funky disk formats, the horrible single button mouse, etc. But in 2007 when I was looking for a new laptop, a good friend convinced me to give one a try - he and all of his co-workers were using Macs at work and at home and really loved them. I figured "WTF, if I hate it, I can just load Windows on it."

Those first 2 weeks of OSX ownership were beyond frustrating - having to relearn how to do everything in the Mac way. But little by little, as I got the hang of it, I just started really loving the interface and finding that the OS was making me actually ENJOY computing again, was powerful in so many ways (automation scripts, applescript built in, Java applications treated as first class applications (I'm a Java programmer by trade), and I had all the strong Unix underpinnings if I needed them. The full development tool suite included for free...) I was hooked.

A year later that same friend offered me his older Mac mini. After dealing with trying to support my mom from 1000 miles away, who knows NOTHING about computers and routinely called to drive me nuts to walk her through everything over the phone, I jumped at the chance. I can count the number of times she's had to call me with questions on 1 hand since I gave it to her.



And besides, wouldn't the world be a little boring if everything was all on just a single OS, no choice, no options, no different ideas of how computing should be done? Look how much Windows has evolved in the last 10 years alone (Windows ME/2000-->XP-->Vista-->7) and try to tell me it would have evolved as much if it weren't for Apple and OSX as competition. Do you really think there'd even be an Android right now if it wasn't for the iPhone? Maybe, but it would look and work VERY differently....

The problem, if you can call it that, is that you come from the perspective of a programmer. If you want to program, perhaps OSX is the best development platform for reasons of the kernel architecture, the included dev tools, things like that.

Which have nothing to do with what 99% of the users buy them for. In the end, most users don't care how the kernel works. They turn it on, click on an icon and launch their app and off they go. The only drivers I update, is the video card because of gaming, and Steam tells me when a new one comes out, just as it automatically updates my installed games. Other than that, the user experience is little different. The launch bar and a few icons are different, but as far as general usage goes, not much. OSX is incredibly polished and refined, and that may appeal to people, but it doesn't really effect the function.

I can gaurantee you that all the kids sitting there on Facebook at Starbucks on their $1500 MacBooks are not doing anything more demanding than surfing, writing a term paper, listening to iTunes, etc... and a $299 Netbook can do all that with ease.

If you want to spend that much, great, nobody cares. It's the claim of "Apple is so much better" when in reality, it isn't. It's still a Dell in a shiny case with a really expensive OS on it that doesn't do anything that Windows or Linux doesn't do.

[RogueElement]

And besides, wouldn't the world be a little boring if everything was all on just a single OS, no choice, no options, no different ideas of how computing should be done? Look how much Windows has evolved in the last 10 years alone (Windows ME/2000-->XP-->Vista-->7) and try to tell me it would have evolved as much if it weren't for Apple and OSX as competition. Do you really think there'd even be an Android right now if it wasn't for the iPhone? Maybe, but it would look and work VERY differently....

Pretty sure that statement goes both ways. Yay capitalism. And yes, I do agree you're speaking to a brick wall.

I once tried to build my own kernel for FreeBSD...biggest nightmare ever. I was about ready to throw the box out the window a week later, but I do understand there's more to a computer than "point, click, enjoy." I dabble around with Silverlight. I more or less need Windows to do so properly. You have a legitimate reason for using a Mac, I get that. But are you saying that a majority of Mac users do? I think that's what Dave is trying to get across. For the vast majority of Mac users, they would have the exact same experience with Windows. But they'd defend it to death and tout it as the best thing since sliced bread based upon what OTHER people say because they are sheep and only got one because it was the cool thing to do.

In any case, saying that you'll "spend more time administering" a Windox box than actually using it just throws you into that extremist crowd. You know that's not the case and its by FAR an inaccurate statement, but you say it anyway because you want to prove a point. I could lose both arms and still be able to count on my fingers how many times I've had to tinker with my computer since installing Win7 nearly 2 years ago. XP was crap, anything prior to NT was crap, but Win7 took most of what made Windows work, adopted some *nix like driver support/storage&resource management and made something much much nicer.

I run Ccleaner once in a blue moon to clean up broken registery values, all my updates/scans happen at 5am. Its almost completely hands-free. When it comes down to it, its chocolate and vanilla. I wouldn't say any one is better overall, but its up to the taste of the individual using it. I'm just sick of people trying to force vanilla down my throat after I've decided that I like chocolate more.

[MrBlah]

And none of the top Linux distros require you to live in a Terminal any more. Hasn't been that way for awhile. If I was not a gamer, I would be running Linux right now. Free, fast, secure, updated regularly and a lot of the widgets and eye candy blows OSX and W7 away. I ran OpenSuse as my laptop OS until I got my new job and had to install Windows as they are a MS Shop...

Bullshit

I have ran linux since slackware in 1997 . I installed fedora 15 2 days ago on a dell laptop I had to fix a bunch of shit in terminal

Could not do system update without terminal fixes
Could not use wifi without terminal fixes
Fonts still ugly and burn my eyes

The new gnome desktop is shit they took away the task bar so you can't see what is running unless you mouse over to an expose function. They also removed almost all setting preference gui's forcing mr to edit config files that have no documentation. It's a mess
I swear gnome devs purposely try to alienate users, it started getting bad in 2.x with the screen settings

[RogueElement]

Bullshit

I have ran linux since slackware in 1997 . I installed fedora 15 2 days ago on a dell laptop I had to fix a bunch of shit in terminal

Could not do system update without terminal fixes
Could not use wifi without terminal fixes
Fonts still ugly and burn my eyes

The new gnome desktop is shit they took away the task bar so you can't see what is running unless you mouse over to an expose function. They also removed almost all setting preference gui's forcing mr to edit config files that have no documentation. It's a mess
I swear gnome devs purposely try to alienate users, it started getting bad in 2.x with the screen settings

So needing to do 2 things within a terminal window means that you live in it?

[MrBlah]

?

I am fine in a shell prompt, 99 % of pc users are not

[SquireSCA]

Bullshit

I have ran linux since slackware in 1997 . I installed fedora 15 2 days ago on a dell laptop I had to fix a bunch of shit in terminal

Could not do system update without terminal fixes
Could not use wifi without terminal fixes
Fonts still ugly and burn my eyes

The new gnome desktop is shit they took away the task bar so you can't see what is running unless you mouse over to an expose function. They also removed almost all setting preference gui's forcing mr to edit config files that have no documentation. It's a mess
I swear gnome devs purposely try to alienate users, it started getting bad in 2.x with the screen settings

Then pick a better distro. I used OpenSuse over the years and the latest iterations are amazing, and I never had to go to Terminal to do anything. I also used the KDE versions, and they have installers and GUI based configuration tools for just about everything.

[ramm]

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/19357/1656015-1289119_this_thread_again_super.jpg

[SpeedGeek]

Oh, because you NEVER have to install updates on "Patch Tuesday" (which happens nearly EVERY week with Windows? Even windows 7...) And why the HELL does MS not release service packs more often so I wouldn't have to install the OS, Install the SP, then install the 500 updates SINCE the SP. At least Apple does point releases every 3-4 months and it rolls up all the patches since the previous one into the next. So you at MOST have a couple patches after installing the latest point update if installing from scratch.

And OMG it pisses me off to NO END when I go to boot up into Windows because I want to play a game, and boom it makes me sit through 20 minutes of downloading and installing updates and forcing a reboot BEFORE I can play. Why am I not given the OPTION before it does it? (ok, maybe part of that is because I don't boot into Windows often, but still, I should get the option to do it now or wait for later, it should NEVER be forced on me.)

My point was that even if people are buying Macs for reasons that seem stupid or pointless TO YOU, that doesn't mean it is TO THEM. They obviously wanted something different than what they've been using and are finding something exciting or better about how they use the computer (even if it IS just writing a term paper, doing email or hitting facebook) than they were when using Windows. Does that make them wrong or idiots? Maybe THEY find OSX easier to use than Windows (even 7). Maybe they like the look and feel of the UI better. Maybe they find it more straightforward to operate, install and remove software, backup, etc. Regardless, it's THEIR personal choice because they've found something they like better.

I'll admit, there's nothing you can do in 1 OS (be it Linux, Windows or OSX) that you can't do in the others, just in different ways, sometimes easier sometimes harder. But it's exactly that "different ways" that makes all the difference to the end user. More computer savy people like us aren't afraid to poke around and figure out how to do what we want. There's a HUGE class of people out there who are deathly afraid to try anything new on their computer because they're afraid they're going to break it. Don't believe me? Go to one of those people's computers and just move their icons around on the screen, or remove all the icons and make them have to go through the Start Menu / Dock.... They're lost. They won't even ATTEMPT to click around to find another way to get to their stuff.

Anyhow, like i've said before, if Windows does what you want, FINE, USE IT! Enjoy it! Some of us just really prefer the way Apple does things in OSX, and so we use that. To each their own. That doesn't make those people idiots for liking what they like, even if you FEEL they paid too much for it. They found value in the product and chose to pony up the money for it. Just like Dave feels value for his Droid X that I don't see. His needs and use case is different than mine so those features that I think aren't a big deal ARE a big deal to him. Do I feel he's being silly, sure. But I've never said "Dave you're wrong, that Android phone is stupid and you are stupid for buying it." It's not the phone *I* would buy, and hence I didn't, but that doesn't mean it's not the phone he should buy.

I'm with you on Linux though... Every time I try it, I end up spending more time fighting with trying to get around install problems and getting software I need installed and working correctly (why the HELL in 2011 do I STILL need to be dicking around with setting up environment variables in my .bashrc after installing something to get it to work?!??!) than I do actually USING it... If you're just sticking with the pre-installed stuff, and using it as a basic desktop for surfing/media/word processing stuff, it's fine. But if you want to do something like write code, or stand up a web server or anything like that - prepare for command line hell! And god forbid you have some hardware that requires a kernel patch to get working!

For Windows, honestly, I preferred Windows 2000 the most - less stupid BS "visual cuteness" - just down and dirty, clean interface, fast, low resource requirements, pretty stable. The first time I saw the XP default UI I just cringed in pain and thought "Did I just go back to Kindergarden???" Windows 7 is a BIT better, but I still end up turning off as much of the "cute" stuff as possible and get it back to Windows 2000 L&F as much as I can.

[SquireSCA]

Pretty sure that statement goes both ways. Yay capitalism. And yes, I do agree you're speaking to a brick wall.

I once tried to build my own kernel for FreeBSD...biggest nightmare ever. I was about ready to throw the box out the window a week later, but I do understand there's more to a computer than "point, click, enjoy." I dabble around with Silverlight. I more or less need Windows to do so properly. You have a legitimate reason for using a Mac, I get that. But are you saying that a majority of Mac users do? I think that's what Dave is trying to get across. For the vast majority of Mac users, they would have the exact same experience with Windows. But they'd defend it to death and tout it as the best thing since sliced bread based upon what OTHER people say because they are sheep and only got one because it was the cool thing to do.

In any case, saying that you'll "spend more time administering" a Windox box than actually using it just throws you into that extremist crowd. You know that's not the case and its by FAR an inaccurate statement, but you say it anyway because you want to prove a point. I could lose both arms and still be able to count on my fingers how many times I've had to tinker with my computer since installing Win7 nearly 2 years ago. XP was crap, anything prior to NT was crap, but Win7 took most of what made Windows work, adopted some *nix like driver support/storage&resource management and made something much much nicer.

I run Ccleaner once in a blue moon to clean up broken registery values, all my updates/scans happen at 5am. Its almost completely hands-free. When it comes down to it, its chocolate and vanilla. I wouldn't say any one is better overall, but its up to the taste of the individual using it. I'm just sick of people trying to force vanilla down my throat after I've decided that I like chocolate more.

Precisely. Nobody is claiming that Mac isn't a good computer. All I am saying is that most of the people that buy them do so for marketing reasons, yet they will sit there and try to claim how much better it is, not realizing that they have a Dell with a slightly different OS loaded onto it.

I don't know anyone who buys a PC because they love Windows. They buy a PC to do what they need to do, it comes with Windows and they don't give it a second thought. I don't really see Windows fanboys...

But you see a shitload of people proudly buying Macs, making sure everyone sees them looking down their noses at Windows users, etc... Apple relies on fanboys to stay in business, and they market it that way... "Buy this product and you will be special", and the idiots who buy into it believe it to the extent that they go out of their way to broadcast it with a smug attitute when all they got was an overpriced Dell in order to sit on Facebook and play music. Brilliant.

[SquireSCA]

So needing to do 2 things within a terminal window means that you live in it?

It is something that many Linux fans pride themselves on. Many of them like Linux just for the fact that they can do everything in a terminal.

That makes them more l337 than you, and makes their ePenis longer.

[SquireSCA]

Oh, because you NEVER have to install updates on "Patch Tuesday" (which happens nearly EVERY week with Windows? Even windows 7...) And why the HELL does MS not release service packs more often so I wouldn't have to install the OS, Install the SP, then install the 500 updates SINCE the SP. At least Apple does point releases every 3-4 months and it rolls up all the patches since the previous one into the next. So you at MOST have a couple patches after installing the latest point update if installing from scratch.

And OMG it pisses me off to NO END when I go to boot up into Windows because I want to play a game, and boom it makes me sit through 20 minutes of downloading and installing updates and forcing a reboot BEFORE I can play. Why am I not given the OPTION before it does it? (ok, maybe part of that is because I don't boot into Windows often, but still, I should get the option to do it now or wait for later, it should NEVER be forced on me.)

My point was that even if people are buying Macs for reasons that seem stupid or pointless TO YOU, that doesn't mean it is TO THEM. They obviously wanted something different than what they've been using and are finding something exciting or better about how they use the computer (even if it IS just writing a term paper, doing email or hitting facebook) than they were when using Windows. Does that make them wrong or idiots? Maybe THEY find OSX easier to use than Windows (even 7). Maybe they like the look and feel of the UI better. Maybe they find it more straightforward to operate, install and remove software, backup, etc. Regardless, it's THEIR personal choice because they've found something they like better.

I'll admit, there's nothing you can do in 1 OS (be it Linux, Windows or OSX) that you can't do in the others, just in different ways, sometimes easier sometimes harder. But it's exactly that "different ways" that makes all the difference to the end user. More computer savy people like us aren't afraid to poke around and figure out how to do what we want. There's a HUGE class of people out there who are deathly afraid to try anything new on their computer because they're afraid they're going to break it. Don't believe me? Go to one of those people's computers and just move their icons around on the screen, or remove all the icons and make them have to go through the Start Menu / Dock.... They're lost. They won't even ATTEMPT to click around to find another way to get to their stuff.

Anyhow, like i've said before, if Windows does what you want, FINE, USE IT! Enjoy it! Some of us just really prefer the way Apple does things in OSX, and so we use that. To each their own. That doesn't make those people idiots for liking what they like, even if you FEEL they paid too much for it. They found value in the product and chose to pony up the money for it. Just like Dave feels value for his Droid X that I don't see. His needs and use case is different than mine so those features that I think aren't a big deal ARE a big deal to him. Do I feel he's being silly, sure. But I've never said "Dave you're wrong, that Android phone is stupid and you are stupid for buying it." It's not the phone *I* would buy, and hence I didn't, but that doesn't mean it's not the phone he should buy.

I'm with you on Linux though... Every time I try it, I end up spending more time fighting with trying to get around install problems and getting software I need installed and working correctly (why the HELL in 2011 do I STILL need to be dicking around with setting up environment variables in my .bashrc after installing something to get it to work?!??!) than I do actually USING it... If you're just sticking with the pre-installed stuff, and using it as a basic desktop for surfing/media/word processing stuff, it's fine. But if you want to do something like write code, or stand up a web server or anything like that - prepare for command line hell! And god forbid you have some hardware that requires a kernel patch to get working!

For Windows, honestly, I preferred Windows 2000 the most - less stupid BS "visual cuteness" - just down and dirty, clean interface, fast, low resource requirements, pretty stable. The first time I saw the XP default UI I just cringed in pain and thought "Did I just go back to Kindergarden???" Windows 7 is a BIT better, but I still end up turning off as much of the "cute" stuff as possible and get it back to Windows 2000 L&F as much as I can.

1) I don't do anything like that Mike. I don't even know when Service Packs come out because the system maintains itself at 4am when the PC is not in use. I log in in the morning and it has the new stuff installed and off I go.

2) You can set the system to not force you to load updates before playing a game. Just because you don't know how to do it, don't blame the OS. And also, you are the one that decided that it made more sense to run two OS's on the same computer when one does everything you need and the other does everything except game well. Just because you like how OSX uninstalls an app, you create your own problems and then blame Windows? Classic.

3) People should buy what they like. We are only criticizing the lame reasons why they like it. Mainly because it is a fad, its the cool thing to buy, etc. I don't care why people buy Harleys. Buy all you want, just be honest about it, that's all. Admit that you like the image, the culture, etc... Don't sit there trying to claim that a Harley is a superior bike to a Honda when we all know that it isn't. It costs twice as much, uses 1970's tech, the build quality isn't as high, it's slower, handles worse. If you want to pay that just to be able to brag that you have a HARLEY, fine, but leave the bullshit excuses at the door and admit why.

4) And I never care that a newer OS uses more resources. Go try to play Crysis 2 on the video card you purchased 2 years ago and prepare for the slide show game action. Of course a new OS is more bloated, and that goes for Windows, OSX, Linux, etc... It goes for Photoshop and every game ever made.

[RogueElement]

4) And I never care that a newer OS uses more resources. Go try to play Crysis 2 on the video card you purchased 2 years ago and prepare for the slide show game action. Of course a new OS is more bloated, and that goes for Windows, OSX, Linux, etc... It goes for Photoshop and every game ever made.

Crysis would have been a more apt benchmark. Crysis 2 was dumbed down for console port. I still can't run Crysis at Ultra settings with more than about 20fps. :up:

And the first thing I do when I get a Windows box is strip it down to make it look like Win95. I, too, don't care for all the fluff.

[SquireSCA]

Crysis would have been a more apt benchmark. Crysis 2 was dumbed down for console port. I still can't run Crysis at Ultra settings with more than about 20fps. :up:

And the first thing I do when I get a Windows box is strip it down to make it look like Win95. I, too, don't care for all the fluff.

And yet people like all the eye candy and fluff in OSX. LOL

I like how Windows7 looks. I like the Aero themes, and if someone has a PC that runs slow enough that they have to turn down settings, then they are due for an upgrade anyway IMHO.

I play Crysis, the expansion pack and Crysis 2 all the time at 1920x1200 with high settings, and the games run great. But I do plan to do an upgrade by winter if I can.

[SpeedGeek]

Precisely. Nobody is claiming that Mac isn't a good computer. All I am saying is that most of the people that buy them do so for marketing reasons, yet they will sit there and try to claim how much better it is, not realizing that they have a Dell with a slightly different OS loaded onto it.


Ok, want to prove that please? How do YOU know what their reasons for buying them was??? Maybe they liked the sleek aluminum case design? Maybe they feel they get better support because they can go to the Mac store for help? Maybe they are sick of windows?

My point being, STOP ASSUMING YOU KNOW WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT AND WHY because you DON'T. You only know why YOU don't want it. Fine. You have that right. But don't just assume others buy something because of YOUR reasons.

And where the HELL are you seeing people being smug about owning a Mac? Did it occur to you that maybe some of the reason they feel it's special is EXACTLY the same reason why you get a bug up your ass to customize every single bike you buy? Because it's NOT just like everyone else's (or at least like every other Windows notebook out there...)

[RogueElement]

Ok, want to prove that please? How do YOU know what their reasons for buying them was??? Maybe they liked the sleek aluminum case design? Maybe they feel they get better support because they can go to the Mac store for help? Maybe they are sick of windows?

My point being, STOP ASSUMING YOU KNOW WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT AND WHY because you DON'T. You only know why YOU don't want it. Fine. You have that right. But don't just assume others buy something because of YOUR reasons.

And where the HELL are you seeing people being smug about owning a Mac? Did it occur to you that maybe some of the reason they feel it's special is EXACTLY the same reason why you get a bug up your ass to customize every single bike you buy? Because it's NOT just like everyone else's (or at least like every other Windows notebook out there...)

So, to settle this, we need Dave to "take it to the streets" for some video interviews. :D

[MrBlah]

Then pick a better distro. I used OpenSuse over the years and the latest iterations are amazing, and I never had to go to Terminal to do anything. I also used the KDE versions, and they have installers and GUI based configuration tools for just about everything.

a better distro? that's subjective as they all are different, I HATE kde, it reminds me of old versions of windows, I used opensuse years ago and it was ok

I've got fedora 15 on it now, I'm going to try ubuntu oneiric and see how that looks, one of the best things about linux is boot of usb and run off usb to try before you "buy"

[SquireSCA]

Ok, want to prove that please? How do YOU know what their reasons for buying them was??? Maybe they liked the sleek aluminum case design? Maybe they feel they get better support because they can go to the Mac store for help? Maybe they are sick of windows?

My point being, STOP ASSUMING YOU KNOW WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT AND WHY because you DON'T. You only know why YOU don't want it. Fine. You have that right. But don't just assume others buy something because of YOUR reasons.

And where the HELL are you seeing people being smug about owning a Mac? Did it occur to you that maybe some of the reason they feel it's special is EXACTLY the same reason why you get a bug up your ass to customize every single bike you buy? Because it's NOT just like everyone else's (or at least like every other Windows notebook out there...)

It is actually easy. Far easier than you make it out to be.

As far as seeing people being smug, or who buys Apple and why... Despite what I have seen with my eyes over the years and things I have heard when talking to people, the biggest indicator is the advertizing.

By watching the ads, you can tell a lot. You can tell who they are marketing to, which means that Apple has decided who their main target is. Yes, they want all demographics to buy their products, but when you have a 30 second ad, you have one quick shot and you take that shot at your preferred target, the group you feel you have the highest chance of scoring with.

Second part is you can see how they market it to that target. What emotional buttons they push. What emotional connection they try create with the potential buyer.

People buy, for the most part, based on emotion. How does this make me feel? That is the goal of the ad, to identify a target, figure out what makes them tick, and you present your product or service in such a way as to try to strike that emotional chord and have it resonate with them.

Some people will buy more based on logic. They will have a laundry list of features that they want or need and they will go find the product that has them. There is of course some emotion in their somewhere, but that type of buyer tends to be more logical, like the buyer who makes a decision based 90% on price.

But most buyers, especially with items that they don't really need, tend to fall into the emotional camp. And a product that makes them feel special, empowered, "not going with the grain", etc... The "If you don't have an iPhone, well, you don't have an iPhone"... What does that even mean? You make that statement, and you allow the buyer to connect their own dots, that owning an iPhone is an achievement, it is status, and if you don't have it you are left behind in some way or lower than your peers that have it. The ad says nothing about superior performance, additional features or benefits, it is just "You want this because having it makes you special, and you don't want to not be special in a sea of people that are special, do you?"

Or the Mac vs PC guys... The message is not about compatibility, performance, best bang for the buck, ability to play game or software titles that the other cannot... All it says is, "You can be a dork like your parents and have a PC, or you can be better than them and cool like this hipster if you own a Mac, even though the Mac doesn't do a god damn thing that the PC doesn't do just as well for 40% less"...

You are a code-monkey, perhaps a very good one Mike. But I happen to know a little bit about sales and marketing, you know?

By seeing who someone markets something to, and what tactics they use, you can see the bigger picture unfold and see who is buying, and why, etc...

The notion that most people are paying $1500 for a Macbook to send out Tweets or type a term paper because they are "fed up with Windows", or "Prefer the way the kernal works" or whatever, is silly. Most people don't care about that shit and most people don't have a problem with Windows. Especially with Win7 which is 90% like OSX to the end user.

People don't camp out for days to get an iPhone because they feel they are getting the best phone and having access to new features that only Apple can provide. They do it because they are FANS.

People who buy Windows machines, just want a computer. They have a need, it fills it, if it comes with Windows, nobody cares. Despite Windows dominating the global desktop market for decades, I don't really see Windows FANS. I see hundreds of millions of people that use it as a tool, a means to an end.

But I don't see that attitude on the Mac side. They are usually fans, they champion it, it isn't just a tool, it is about HAVING A MAC.

And that goes right back to and is supported by the advertizing and marketing and how, just like Harley Davidson, Apple has very cleverly found a niche audience and created a culture around it that drives this massive fanboi type of loyalty to the brand.

It isn't about having the best product. It isn't about having the best features.

It's about OWNING A MAC.

For most Windows users it is, "Ok, so the hardware is pretty much the same, but this one does everything that one does, plus it can play some games and things that the other one can't, plus it is completely compatitble with all the stuff I have from work and it costs half as much? Ok, I'll take that one then"...

Completely different thought process, completely different mindset, and completely different marketing style.

[RogueElement]

the list is now
HP 29 %
dell 22 %
apple 10 %

that's the top 3 for all computer sales

So I read something earlier this week that states this number also includes iPad sales into "total PC sales." A bit misleading if you ask me.

[SquireSCA]

a better distro? that's subjective as they all are different, I HATE kde, it reminds me of old versions of windows, I used opensuse years ago and it was ok

I've got fedora 15 on it now, I'm going to try ubuntu oneiric and see how that looks, one of the best things about linux is boot of usb and run off usb to try before you "buy"

So you hate versions that are more polished and don't require Terminal access to do everything, and so you choose the ones that do, and then complain that "Linux still requires you to do everything in Terminal"?

Classic.

And yes, the LiveCD(or USB) versions are nice. They also make great utility tools. Been using them since the original Knoppix CD came out...

[SquireSCA]

So I read something earlier this week that states this number also includes iPad sales into "total PC sales." A bit misleading if you ask me.

Well, the tablets do blur the line between what is a PC and what isn't.

Here is the thing... The iPad is hurting PC sales, not just Windows machines, but even MacBooks. If all you need is something to type a paper, get email, Social Networking, internet and watch movies, why would you need a laptop? Especially in this economy where your needs are simple and a $500 device looks far more attractive than a $1000 device.

I think that tablets have a very cool market, and fill a gap. My issue is that if I am gonna spend $500 on one, I want an SD slot, I want HDMI out, I want it to just function as a USB hard drive for easy transfers to ANY machine that I choose, I want Flash support(until everyone switches to HTML5), and things like that. I also want to be able to install apps from the development community, rather than have Apple decide whether I should be allowed to install an app onto the machine that I PAID FOR.

I am not against tablets. I am simply not impressed with how Apple once again takes something that could really suit my needs, and intentionally cripples it and forces you to accept losing what will be industry standard features and force you into doing everything their way.

F that. Sell me the tablet and let ME decide how I want to use it.

[MrBlah]

So you hate versions that are more polished and don't require Terminal access to do everything, and so you choose the ones that do, and then complain that "Linux still requires you to do everything in Terminal"?

Classic.


I did not say that

squire tactic #3 make up shit so you can argue about it

now where is my hp touchpad, hp needs to hurry up and ship it

[SquireSCA]

I did not say that

squire tactic #3 make up shit so you can argue about it

now where is my hp touchpad, hp needs to hurry up and ship it

But you did. You said that Linux required Terminal to do most things, and it doesn't. Many distros barely require Terminal for anything. I pointed that out and you said you don't like those and that you preferred a different set of distros... So my point that you like the ones that do, but then complain about it seems valid, no?

[MrBlah]

But you did. You said that Linux required Terminal to do most things, and it doesn't. Many distros barely require Terminal for anything. I pointed that out and you said you don't like those and that you preferred a different set of distros... So my point that you like the ones that do, but then complain about it seems valid, no?

I said I hate kde, I did not say a single thing about disliking any distro's, you made that shit up

I have ran linux for 13 years, every single one requires some terminal use, or a lot of it if you want something done fast, anyone that says otherwise is full of shit

I spend my entire day in a windows command prompt, I dont like doing it at home too

[RogueElement]

Here's what he's drilling you over:


requires you to live inside a terminal


requires some terminal use


I spend my entire day in a windows command prompt, I dont like doing it at home too

You're waffling, you just don't realize it.

[MrBlah]

lol @ waffling

for the record so he knows what I said

I hate kde

I do not hate linux distro's, obviously because I've ran linux for over 10 years, and have been paid to admin linux servers in the past

linux still requires excessive terminal to fix things, like in my case, my dell laptop's wifi does not work on any current distro, they now require you to use sneakernet to copy firmware drivers, and and then download and run an "extra" program that does not fit the current distro's software rules, kinda like how they make you get flash on your own. Ubuntu and all it's clones, redhat and it's clones, I did not try suse because it's not up to date with gnome

it's stupid because my wifi worked in previous kernels out of the box without some firmware extraction hack