(Self-inflicted) problems with 2004 R1 and starter motor.

[TarzanMan]

I need some serious help. In trying to fix the bike (the starter motor) I have messed it up worse and I am not even sure what is broken.

PROBLEM:
-The bike will not start.
-The bike does all of the normal tests when the key is turned to on (lights blink, fuel pump primes the engine)
-When I press the starter, I only get a single click coming from the fuse area under the seat
-Subsequent presses of the starter give the same single click.


CAUSE:
The motorcycle starter was beginning to get sluggish. I thought it might be the cooler weather, but an oil change did not fix the problem. After doing some reading, I decided that the starter motor was probably dirty and decided to remove it, clean it, and replace it.

I removed the starter motor, opened it up (it had a lot of dirt in it, doused it repeatedly with contact cleaner and scrubbed it with a toothbrush. Then I put it back together and put it back in the bike. After reassembling the bike and trying to start it, I got a single click.

ATTEMPTED REMEDY
I took the starter back out to check it. A friend suggested that I check it by removing it from the crank and watching to see what the motor did when I pressed the start button on the bike. The starter only moved a small bit (less than 1/4 rotation) and there was still a loud click from the fuse area.

I disassembled the starter and put it back together again. I put it back in the bike and this time I tried to bump start the motorcycle. The bike still would not start

MY THOUGHTS
I have no idea what I have broken, but my guess is that I have caused some kind of electric problem since I cannot even bump start the bike. If it is an electrical problem, then a new starter motor might not fix it.


PHOTOS & VIDEO
I have put a video up of me trying to start the bike and the click at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jERIlCFA0T0
These are photos of what the end cap of the starter looked like before I cleaned it with contact cleaner:

http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110191-s.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110191.JPG)
http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110192-s.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110192.JPG)
http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110193-s.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110193.JPG)

Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks.

[speed-kills]

I don't know your level of knowledge so ill trow this out have you checked your battery. Also try hooking the starter to a car battery that you know is good see if it spins like that. If your battery is good and the starter works hooked to another battery its a wiring or relay issue

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[TarzanMan]

I am 99% certain that it is not the battery, but I will test it when I get home later tonight to be sure.

[RogueElement]

It might not be the battery, but that's exactly what it sounds like. Especially if you're hearing that click under your seat.

[cliff0529]

Could be a bad starter relay too, might explain the click you're hearing.

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2004-yamaha-yzfr1s-yzfr1/o/m9012#sch301106

The relay is under the seat near the battery probably, looks like it should have a 15A fuse in it.

[Over TWO Customs]

Starter relay. Find the relay that has the positive lead going to it and a 30 amp fuse holder connected to it. With the key on, start switch on, ready to crank... take a pair of pliers and bridge the connection on the relay. If the bike turns over and fires up then your starter is good and your relay is crap.

[TarzanMan]

I had some time this evening, so I tested a few things on the R1.

ATTEMPTED JUMP START
I connected a car battery (the car was off) to the battery terminals of the R1 with some jumper cables. I have started the motorcycle this way before. Positive to positive and negative to negative. The bike exhibited the same behavior. Instruments do a self test, fuel pump primes, single loud click from the starter relay.

STARTER RELAY
I tested the starter relay per the service manual's (rather confusing) description. There is continuity between the terminals for the 'red' and 'black' leads when the two power terminals are energized (I energized them by connecting them to the battery).


STARTER CIRCUIT CUT-OFF RELAY
I tested the starter circuit cut-off relay in a similar manner per the service manual's (less confusing) instructions. The designated leads show continuity when two other leads are energized.

The manual says to check the main (ignition) switch, the cut-off switch and the kick-stand switch, but these at least seem to be in working order.... though I am not sure if the main (ignition switch) might have more than one failure state.

ATTEMPTED BUMP START
I tried to bump start the bike once again tonight. Same results as before; I did not get the motor to turn over.

LAST ATTEMPT AT STARTING THE BIKE
The last thing I did was try to start the bike normally. No jumping, no bumping. This time I listened to see if I heard any other sounds. In addition to the instrument tests and the starter relay click, I hear a rather quiet grinding/clicking coming from inside the engine. My guess is that it was the starter motor.

I ended the evening by removing the battery (Yuasa YTZ-10) and putting it on a tender.

MORE QUESTIONS?
The results tonight are a little confusing to me:
• If the problem is with the battery, then why did a jump start from a car battery not produce any different results?

• If the problem is with the starter motor, then why does a bump-start not start the motorcycle?

The only theory I have so far is that there is a problem with both the starter motor and the battery. The first thing I shall try after the battery is charged is a bump start. If that does not work then I am not sure what other theories might explain the problem.



Anyone have any ideas what might be going on?

[speed-kills]

You should hook the car battery directly to the starter bypassing all the wiring to confirm or eliminate the starter as a problem. As far as bump starting are you in first or second first usually causes wheel slip and no start second is more effective. If it wont start with a bump either you have larger problems than a starter, the starter is binding the flywheel, or your doing it wrong.

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[speed-kills]

Have you volt tested the battery a collapsed cell can drag down enough power that even a jump wont do it as long as the battery is connected. Not the best idea but I've done it in a pinch you can use jumper cables directly to the battery leads without the bike battery hooked up at all if it does start cut it off disconnect the jumpers and go buy a new battery

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[TarzanMan]

I will try those suggestions if there is no change after putting in the battery back in (I put it on a tender to charge it up)

[MX Tuner]

Is the engine locked up? If you have a cylinder full of fuel, coolant, piece of valve, etc, it can prevent the engine from turning over. Don't overlook the obvious.

[TarzanMan]

The battery finished charging a couple of minutes ago. I put it in the bike and got the same results I have gotten up till this point (instrument test, then a click).

I will pull the starter motor back out tomorrow and test it outside the bike. The service manual says to use a cable that can handle the load and to expect sparks. The diagram is slightly confusing (just like most of Yamaha's diagrams), but hopefully I will be able to figure it out.



Is the engine locked up? If you have a cylinder full of fuel, coolant, piece of valve, etc, it can prevent the engine from turning over. Don't overlook the obvious.

The engine does not seem to be locked up. The rear wheel does turn some when I shift into gear and try to bump start it.

[wallypiper]

Didn't you already try energizing the starter with it mechanically out of the motor? If it won't turn like that, the problem isn't in the engine. It's in the starter.

The relay under the seat energizes the starter circuit. Seems it is passing all the tests. The brushes in your starter look pretty bad. They can be replaced but it may not be easy, could require some soldering. If you bypass the relay with the starter off the engine and the starter motor doesn't turn, I don't think there's anything left. Get a new starter or rebuild the one your have.

[speed-kills]

That was using the bike battery and wiring not a direct connection to a battery that is known to be good
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[wallypiper]

But it takes almost no juice to spin a motor that isn't connected to anything. But by all means check it directly to a known good battery. Here's a nice little vid of a DC motor. Note the brushes. If a brush isn't making contact, the motor won't run.

<iframe width="640" height="510" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MFGqf6AfDB0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[TarzanMan]

The bike is still not working, but I have discovered the initial cause to the problems with the starter:

DISASSEMBLING THE STARTER
I decided to 'check my work' by examining the starter again. My original intent was to remove it from the motorcycle to test it. I took it out, took it apart and compared the brush assembly to a photo I took when I originally took it apart (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9110192.JPG) to clean it.

Here are photos of the brush assembly in its original state (on the left, gray towel) and its reassembled state (on the right, beige towel) side by side:
http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/starter.brushes-s.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/starter.brushes.jpg)

As you can see from the photo, I put the starter motor back together incorrectly. The brushes at '6-oclock' and '3-oclock' were in the incorrect positions

TRYING TO GET THE STARTER TO WORK
I put the brushes in the original positions and put the starter motor back together. I reinstalled it back into the motorcycle to test it instead of testing it outside the bike.

Upon trying to start the motorcycle:
• The starter relay clicks (as before)
• Now the starter motor grinds loudly.
It does this whether I start it with the motorcyle battery, a motorcycle hooked to a car batter (positive to positive), or a car battery hooked straight to the R1 power terminals.

I have posted a video of this behavior (I apologize for the blurriness, my camera was in manual focus mode and I didn't have a free hand to adjust the focus.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ghy4cYlkWw

'FIXED' BEYOND MY ABILITY TO REPAIR
Its probably better to just replace the entire starter motor at this point. New ones are quite expensive ($300), so I will purchased a used starter motor instead. I know very little about the inner workings of electric motors, so I am at a loss to figure out how I managed to destroy this one.

Any advice or information is appreciated.

[TarzanMan]

I purchased a replacement starter motor from a local source and installed it into the motorcycle. The bike started up on the first try. The new starter motor is out of a 2008 R1 (my bike is a 2004 R1). This replacement starter is noticeably faster and better sounding than the old one.

FITTING THE NEW STARTER MOTOR
The 2008 starter motor is the exact same size as the 2004-2006 starters. The only important difference is the terminal for the power lead in each motor. I took a photo of the two starters side by side:

http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/r1.starters.jpg

The 2004-2006 starter motor has a notch with a threaded hole that a screw fits into (and a nut goes onto the screw after you have tightened it all the way).

The 2008 motor has a threaded terminal that takes a washer and a nut. In order to fit the power lead from a 2004 R1 onto it, you must widen the hole for the power lead with a ~1/4" size drill bit. It may also help to bend the lead flat (in order to get it to fit under the coolant tube), but it is not absolutely necessary

MYSTERY TO NEVER BE SOLVED
I still don't know how I broke my old starter motor. A friend came by and thinks that the armature on the old one smells burnt. NOt sure what I'll do with it... turn it into a fishing lure? (I don't fish)