Microsoft keeping us back from using flash?

[Gmoney]

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Internet-Explorer-Metro-Flash-HTML5-Dean-Hachamovitch,news-12536.html

damn them - i am going with apple!

[SpeedGeek]

Flash is ABSOLUTE complete SH*T and needs to die ASAFP... It made sense back in the 90's when there was no other way to do animations, video and such on the web... That hasn't been the case in over a decade, but because so many people learned Flash and so many sites used it, they never bothered to switch to the newer techs and phase out Flash...

Thank GOD we're starting to see the end of the stupidity...

[Mongo]

So Gates agrees with Jobs? Freaky :D

[RogueElement]

So Gates agrees with Jobs? Freaky :D

Does that mean we'll see you and Dave start agreeing too? :rofl:

[Mongo]

We agree when he's not being a holier than thou maroon :LOL:

[SpeedGeek]

We agree when he's not being a holier than thou maroon :LOL:

So, never, right? lol

[Mongo]

So, never, right? lol

Lets just call it rarely :D

[rr_double_rr]

Flash is ABSOLUTE complete SH*T and needs to die ASAFP... It made sense back in the 90's when there was no other way to do animations, video and such on the web... That hasn't been the case in over a decade, but because so many people learned Flash and so many sites used it, they never bothered to switch to the newer techs and phase out Flash...

Thank GOD we're starting to see the end of the stupidity...

Like IPv6? Nah, let's not transition, we'll just use NAT until the second coming.

[SpeedGeek]

Like IPv6? Nah, let's not transition, we'll just use NAT until the second coming.

Actually, No, IPv6 is important, but just like with Flash, if people don't see the need to change they won't. And right now we're in a position where there really aren't many IPv4 address blocks left to give out, so we're going to HAVE to go to v6 soon.

Even if several large blocks would move to v6, it would free up a big chunk of v4 addresses. The problem is, every time that happens, people then are even LESS incentivized to change to v6 since there are now v4 addresses left to use. Chicken and egg problem.

[rr_double_rr]

That's what my joke was. People are reluctant to change anything. We are in complete agreement that IPv6, like HTML5 is a better solution, if I remember right IPv6 would give each grain of sand on a beach it's own class A network which is insanely huge, but until the transition is made it's nice to be able to see both. Imagine if Apple or Microsoft just stopped recognizing IPv4 addresses because they are right to believe that the tech is outdated and needs to go to a better source. That's essentially what they are doing by not supporting Flash.

It's going to take some strongarming to force the change, no doubt, but until the entire industry goes along with it the customers/ advertisers that end up paying the cost.

[SquireSCA]

Flash is ABSOLUTE complete SH*T and needs to die ASAFP... It made sense back in the 90's when there was no other way to do animations, video and such on the web... That hasn't been the case in over a decade, but because so many people learned Flash and so many sites used it, they never bothered to switch to the newer techs and phase out Flash...

Thank GOD we're starting to see the end of the stupidity...

Oh STFU already. 99.99% of the people out there are not programmers. We don't care how it works, we just care that it does. When something new comes out and people use it, then drop it. But until they do, devices should at least support it. I pay to use the web, not a portion of it...

[Mongo]

You now have some sort of right to access the entire internet? Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SquireSCA]

You now have some sort of right to access the entire internet? Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ummm, yeah. As an Apple user, you don't and so I understand that being able to access content that the rest of the world can access is a foreign concept, but let me just tell you, it's great.

We love being able to go to a site and see the entire page, not just some text and red X's...

It's winderful, you should try it some time...

[Mongo]

Ummm, yeah. As an Apple user, you don't and so I understand that being able to access content that the rest of the world can access is a foreign concept, but let me just tell you, it's great.

We love being able to go to a site and see the entire page, not just some text and red X's...

It's winderful, you should try it some time...

Aw, poor Dave, still so clueless. I use far more pc's than apple products and I still don't feel I have some inherent right to access the entire internet. There are I would guess hundreds of thousands if not millions of sites I cannot access on the internet from any computer anywhere. I also don't have a problem with no flash - the couple of products I use that don't work with that programming weren't a surprise and I bought them knowing this. So I paid them for the parts of the internet that I personally can access and their programming can access.

Hell, there are parts of my website that you will never be able to access no matter what device you are using to get online. Sorry you're not getting what you paid for :rofl:

[SquireSCA]

Aw, poor Dave, still so clueless. I use far more pc's than apple products and I still don't feel I have some inherent right to access the entire internet. There a I would guess hundreds of thousands if not millions of sites I cannot access on the internet from any computer anywhere. I also don't have a problem with no flash - the couple of products I use that don't work with that programming weren't a surprise and I bought them knowing this. So I paid them for the parts of the internet that I personally can access and their programming can access.

Hell, there are parts of my website that you will never be able to access no matter what device you are using to get online. Sorry you're not getting what you paid for :LOL:

Ah Mongo, once again you set aside reason, common sense and even honesty in an attempt to "win an internet argument".

We are clearly not talking about having unrestricted access to any site on the web. We are talking about the pages that we do have access to, having the ability to view the actual content. Like the menu for the restaraunt that you want to eat at. Or using the store locator feature to find the nearest retail location to your area. Or watching a video. Or any of a hundred common, everyday things that about half the web makes use of via Flash, that I can access while you cannot.

See, you are doing what you always do. Intentionally take something out of context to try and make a different argument because the one you are currently engaged in is faulty from your side.

You know that I never said, meant, intended or implied that I expected unrestricted access to anything on the web. You know that the thread is specifically about FLASH support, and that Flash is still on half the websites out there, and any comments about not being able to "access the entire web" are within that context, that I can access flash based websites, while your Apple devices cannot.

Is your argument so weak that you have to try to make it entirely about something else? Or is your readong comprehension so poor that you honestly got confused?

[Mongo]

Ah Mongo, once again you set aside reason, common sense and even honesty in an attempt to "win an internet argument".

We are clearly not talking about having unrestricted access to any site on the web. We are talking about the pages that we do have access to, having the ability to view the actual content. Like the menu for the restaraunt that you want to eat at. Or using the store locator feature to find the nearest retail location to your area. Or watching a video. Or any of a hundred common, everyday things that about half the web makes use of via Flash, that I can access while you cannot.

See, you are doing what you always do. Intentionally take something out of context to try and make a different argument because the one you are currently engaged in is faulty from your side.

You know that I never said, meant, intended or implied that I expected unrestricted access to anything on the web. You know that the thread is specifically about FLASH support, and that Flash is still on half the websites out there, and any comments about not being able to "access the entire web" are within that context, that I can access flash based websites, while your Apple devices cannot.

Is your argument so weak that you have to try to make it entirely about something else? Or is your readong comprehension so poor that you honestly got confused?


My reading comprehension is better than yours evidently - you're the one saying you cannot access parts of the internet you paid for.

Are you still refusing to actually read and comprehend what you type before hitting the post reply button?

I responded quite clearly to your complaint about Apple products not using flash.

I also responded to your assertion that somehow you have paid for access to everything on the internet.

Guess what, someone writing a part of their site in a code that doesn't work with all devices or browsers is that person restricting your access - granted it was YOUR choice for using that browser or device but it's still the same net result, you do not have access. You do not have an inherent right to access. You however as usual have let your ego override reality. No one should ever do anything to control Dave and what Dave wants! Even if Dave has chosen to purchases a product that limits him...yeah..can't be Daves fault for that one...

Sorry if your own words confuse you...

[SquireSCA]

My reading comprehension is better than yours evidently - you're the one saying you cannot access parts of the internet you paid for.

Are you still refusing to actually read and comprehend what you type before hitting the post reply button?

I responded quite clearly to your complaint about Apple products not using flash.

I also responded to your assertion that somehow you have paid for access to everything on the internet.

Guess what, someone writing a part of their site in a code that doesn't work with all devices or browsers is that person restricting your access - granted it was YOUR choice for using that browser or device but it's still the same net result, you do not have access. You do not have an inherent right to access. You however as usual have let your ego override reality. No one should ever do anything to control Dave and what Dave wants! Even if Dave has chosen to purchases a product that limits him...yeah..can't be Daves fault for that one...

Sorry if your own words confuse you...

Except that I never said that I paid for access to everything. And you know that.

You lost the first argument so you tried to salvage things by making the argument into something else. Anyone with an IQ over 90 has kept up so far, except you.

Half the websites out there still use Flash. Apple restricts you from accessing all that content. That is, was, and will always be what this discussion is about, no matter how hard you try to make it into something else.

My phone does support Flash, so when I go to all these websites, I can see the entire page. Because Jobs has a personal gripe with Adobe, you cannot access all the stuff that I can. Hence, your web experience is restricted by not supporting one of the most common API's on the internet today.

Is this really so hard to follow?

HINT: you are the only person here that seems to be not getting this point. Is everyone wrong but you? Or is it that once again you go off in a completely different direction when you lose an argument?

You know what I said, so why pretend not to?

[Mongo]

So now you're trying IQ insults? :D

I know what you actually said - addressed that.

I know what you meant to say - addressed that as well.

What is confusing you about all of this? I responded to both things not just one. After all I obviously have an IQ so much lower than yours that you should be able to easily understand the simple words and concepts I am using.

Oh hell - is that the problem? Is your current device of choice just not allowing you to see responses that blow the bullshit you spew out of the water? If so I am sorry, I'll try not to post things it won't let you see. (SEP field anyone? :rofl: )

[SquireSCA]

If the shoe fits. You are the only one that apparently cannot grasp my simple statement. So either you choose not to, or you are unable to.

Which is it?

Ever wonder why you are the only one on your side? Ever wonder why everyone else gets it but you?

No?

This isn't WERA where your word is law. I think that your perception of things is a little warped. In WERA, you can do whatever you want and what your opinions on things are has to be respected and followed. But in the real world, nobody gives a shit what Mongo thinks. Your opinion doesn't automatically have merit, and it certainly doesn't supercede the reality that we all see on a daily basis.

Everyone reading this knows that Flash, while it may be on the way out, is still used on half the websites out there. They also know that for years, Apple iPhone users have enjoyed a crippled version of the internet as a result. If that doesn't bother you, great, but it does bother millions of other people, and it is common knowledge and a very common complaint of the iPhone. Apple used to tout their browser as showing the the entire internet, the way it is supposed to be displayed, but that isn't really true when the marketing agency they hired had to Photoshop in fake content to cover up all the red X's on the screen of the device, is it?

Your problem is that you just spout opinions. The rest of us do as well, but we post links., articles, studies, sales numbers, etc... to support those opinions.

You don't. You think that simply spouting your opinion with nothing credible to back it up, is "proving everyone wrong".

It makes you a laughing stock. I know personally that you are a nice guy and I like you, but you are completely full of shit half the time when you post. You admit that you do it to stir the pot, and you do so by posting nonsense, half-truths and outright lies much of the time.

[Mongo]

So wait, now this is something to do with which board I'm posting on? Huh? Of course my opinion has more merit than yours, if it didn't I'd think exactly what you do. Since I don't, I prefer my opinion to yours. Um, seriously, duh. That's kind of how the whole opinion thing works.

I already addressed Apple not allowing flash. I've told you repeatedly I addressed it. You disliking Apple not using flash is guess what - an opinion. No facts, no stats, no links to any sites will ever make a difference in it being your opinion. Pretty sure I have never said Apple allows flash so not sure exactly what you're wanting me to back up with all sorts of sources. You don't like Apple doing that, I don't care. You won't buy an Apple product because of it, I and millions of others will. That's really all there is to it. There is no right or wrong. It is what it is. All the hyperbole in the world won't change that. All of your incessant whining about it won't change it either. You do not run Apple and have no say in what they do.

Still wondering why you have such an emotional stake in a piece of electronic equipment. Never really felt all that strongly about them myself.

BTW - I'm a polite person. Don't confuse that with nice. If I were nice I wouldn't point out the dumb stuff you say so often ;)

[Mongo]

BTW - I cut and pasted that from somewhere, the big words don't come from my 90 IQ head :D

[SquireSCA]

So wait, now this is something to do with which board I'm posting on? Huh? Of course my opinion has more merit than yours, if it didn't I'd think exactly what you do. Since I don't, I prefer my opinion to yours. Um, seriously, duh. That's kind of how the whole opinion thing works.

I already addressed Apple not allowing flash. I've told you repeatedly I addressed it. You disliking Apple not using flash is guess what - an opinion. No facts, no stats, no links to any sites will ever make a difference in it being your opinion. Pretty sure I have never said Apple allows flash so not sure exactly what you're wanting me to back up with all sorts of sources. You don't like Apple doing that, I don't care. You won't buy an Apple product because of it, I and millions of others will. That's really all there is to it. There is no right or wrong. It is what it is. All the hyperbole in the world won't change that. All of your incessant whining about it won't change it either. You do not run Apple and have no say in what they do.

Still wondering why you have such an emotional stake in a piece of electronic equipment. Never really felt all that strongly about them myself.

BTW - I'm a polite person. Don't confuse that with nice. If I were nice I wouldn't point out the dumb stuff you say so often ;)

One, my dislike, is an opinion.

However, not having access to a huge segment of the web's content because of that lack of Flash, is not opinion. It's fact. Does that impact you? Maybe.

It did me, and lots of other people, and is the reason why Flash support is almost always at the top of the list of iPhone complaints, or feature requests. If it doesn't effect you, good for you.

But as I said earlier, I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a phone, plus money every month for a data plan, only to have the web content crippled and limited, so I went Droid.

How you took that to mean that I wanted unrestricted access to any website is beyond me, but that's your MO I guess.

[Mongo]

So nothing new to say?

Yet again - already addressed the flash issue. Couple times now.

Yet again - the access to the web you paid for was your words in your post.

[SquireSCA]

So nothing new to say?

Yet again - already addressed the flash issue. Couple times now.

Yet again - the access to the web you paid for was your words in your post.

Yes, access to the web that I paid for were the words.

Which you knew to mean one thing, but wasted a page and a half trying to twist into something else because you knew I was right.

Case closed. Troll another thread now...

[Mongo]

Never twisted a thing - addressed flash in my very first response. You were right? No. You had an opinion yes, but right? I think you don't understand the meaning of the word. Again on your access - your words. Yours. Not mine. I am sorry if you didn't choose the words that would adequately convey one meaning only. Maybe a little thesaurus time would help out?

[SquireSCA]

Never twisted a thing - addressed flash in my very first response. You were right? No. You had an opinion yes, but right? I think you don't understand the meaning of the word. Again on your access - your words. Yours. Not mine. I am sorry if you didn't choose the words that would adequately convey one meaning only. Maybe a little thesaurus time would help out?

If other people took my comment to mean that I wanted unrestricted access to anything online, like maybe the FBI, CIA and Chinese government servers, perhaps you would have a point.

But seeing as that you are the *only* person to "interpret" things that way, I think the issue lies with you...

[Mongo]

Nope, just the only person bored enough to point out your idiocy and willing to laugh at the never ending Dave posts that following pointing out anything about you ;)

Just because people don't respond to you especially definitely does not mean they agree with you.

[Mongo]

BTW, as much fun as it is to see how hard you'll work to get the last word in, gotta go now :D

[RogueElement]

BTW, as much fun as it is to see how hard you'll work to get the last word in, gotta go now :D

I've figured it out. You're the Dan43 of nonLEPR. You two should have a discussion at some point. There'd be 27 pages before either one of you stopped for a breath.

[Ringo®]

There is a long running theory that Mongo and Squire are actually just some old lady in Asia trying to set the record for longest running internet troll fest.

[Mongo]

I'm curious - when Dave says patently stupid shit, why is it a bad thing to point it out? When he then makes up more stupid shit to defend himself in the meantime trying to be insulting to me why shouldn't I respond to it?

I'm not trolling if I'm responding directly to things being said. While you may not want to read the back and forth, it's not that difficult to ignore if you choose to do so. Just as I ignore many of the ridiculous things Dave has posted.

[SquireSCA]

I'm curious - when Dave says patently stupid shit, why is it a bad thing to point it out? When he then makes up more stupid shit to defend himself in the meantime trying to be insulting to me why shouldn't I respond to it?

I'm not trolling if I'm responding directly to things being said. While you may not want to read the back and forth, it's not that difficult to ignore if you choose to do so. Just as I ignore many of the ridiculous things Dave has posted.

Perhaps because I post links and data to back up my claims, while you do not.

Has it occured to you that if you are the only one that feels that way, perhaps it is you that is wrong?

[Mongo]

Perhaps because I post links and data to back up my claims, while you do not.

Has it occured to you that if you are the only one that feels that way, perhaps it is you that is wrong?

Yo Dave - please for gods sake pay attention just once in your life. When discussing an opinion of Flash being important to YOU, there are no facts or sites or the like to back anything up. Period. There can't be. You either care about having Flash or you do not. That's all there is to it. The ONLY fact that matters is if your device of choice has Flash capabilities or it doesn't and that fact has been agreed upon since this started.

See, that is exactly the kind of stupid shit I'm talking about. It is absolutely ridiculous for you to try and use a lack of links in a discussion about whether you care about flash or not.

[SquireSCA]

Yo Dave - please for gods sake pay attention just once in your life. When discussing an opinion of Flash being important to YOU, there are no facts or sites or the like to back anything up. Period. There can't be. You either care about having Flash or you do not. That's all there is to it. The ONLY fact that matters is if your device of choice has Flash capabilities or it doesn't and that fact has been agreed upon since this started.

See, that is exactly the kind of stupid shit I'm talking about. It is absolutely ridiculous for you to try and use a lack of links in a discussion about whether you care about flash or not.

It was never about whether I cared about Flash. You tried to make it about that when you had no argument to make.

Flash is important. Roughly 50% of the interwebs still uses it heavily. It's a problem when you don't support it. It is the #1 complaint about Apple devices, and it is often the #1 requested feature in consumer polls.

You may not care, and that's fine. All I said was that I pay to access the full internet, not half of it. To which you went on some asinine tangent of whether I should have access to every possible server on the internet, when you knew that I was referring to Flash content, not FBI databases and such.

You once again wasted 2 pages trying to make an argument of semantics, just to stir the pot, like you always do. You are usually wrong when you argue, but that is by intent. To you, it is not about being right, it is about "winning an internet debate" by any means neccessary, even if that means lying, making shit up or arguing a point that nobody else is even discussing.

You=troll.

Believe it.

[SquireSCA]

Frankly, I am flattered that you would take so much time out of your day, to take an interest in me and hang on every word I say, just looking for an opening of any kind for you to ride my coat-tails and try to get noticed so that people will even acknowledge you. It is touching, but your tactics can get tedious after awhile.

There has to be a better way to display the obvious man-crush, or bromance that you have for me. While flattered, I simply don't feel the same way for you and I just don't want you to get hurt...

[Mongo]

:rofl: your idiocy on certain subject is only outpaced by your ego....

[SpeedGeek]

Ok, couple things...

First off, partially BECAUSE Apple refused to support flash, and stopped pre-loading it on their macs (although you can still download it yourself), the usage trends have been going down:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cp-flash/all/all

Second, ask yourself - what is flash typically used for:

1) entire website done in flash (these are relatively rare)
2) video, animation, or some other interactive element on a website
3) advertisements, and other annoying popup things

Now... #1 should NEVER be done, and any web developer worth 2 shits should be out of a job if they choose to do an entire site this way... Everyone I know HATES going to websites that are completely done in flash... (don't think flash-based sites suck? Go check out mellowmushroom.com and tell me it's not annoying!)

#2 is fine... when used in moderation.. and I believe that's teh one you are the most upset about.

#3 - UGH, who CARES!?!? I think we're all HAPPY to NOT have those damn ads popping up, or running in the side of the window (EATING CPU as they sit there and do some stupid animation.) Just removing flash from your laptop and then surfing the same websites can actually improve your battery life by like 20-30% because the Flash player isn't sitting there chewing on your CPU (and thus battery) playing all those damn ads...

As far as losing #2 - Video has been increasingly switching over. Games - ok, some people get really bent out of shape on this, but honestly, few of them will play well in a Touch based UI anyhow, so no big loss since they wouldn't work well on a mobile touch based device anyhow.

So, in reality, you're talking about the loss of like < 5% of the actual important-ish content on the web right now... You're really going to get THAT annoyed over <5%??? If the site is THAT important to you, load it up on your laptop... geesh

[SquireSCA]

:rofl: your idiocy on certain subject is only outpaced by your ego....

I just don't want your obsession for me to get out of hand, that's all. You follow me like a puppy, looking for any chance to jump in and interact with me. I know that you can't help yourself, but I would ask you to try. It will only get worse as you get more attached and your feelings for me continue to grow and in the end, you will only end up heart broken.

This thing, it was just never meant to be. I never meant to hurt you and I am sorry.

[SquireSCA]

Ok, couple things...

First off, partially BECAUSE Apple refused to support flash, and stopped pre-loading it on their macs (although you can still download it yourself), the usage trends have been going down:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cp-flash/all/all

Second, ask yourself - what is flash typically used for:

1) entire website done in flash (these are relatively rare)
2) video, animation, or some other interactive element on a website
3) advertisements, and other annoying popup things

Now... #1 should NEVER be done, and any web developer worth 2 shits should be out of a job if they choose to do an entire site this way... Everyone I know HATES going to websites that are completely done in flash...

#2 is fine... when used in moderation.. and I believe that's teh one you are the most upset about.

#3 - UGH, who CARES!?!? I think we're all HAPPY to NOT have those damn ads popping up, or running in the side of the window (EATING CPU as they sit there and do some stupid animation.) Just removing flash from your laptop and then surfing the same websites can actually improve your battery life by like 20-30% because the Flash player isn't sitting there chewing on your CPU (and thus battery) playing all those damn ads...

As far as losing #2 - Video has been increasingly switching over. Games - ok, some people get really bent out of shape on this, but honestly, few of them will play well in a Touch based UI anyhow, so no big loss since they wouldn't work well on a mobile touch based device anyhow.

So, in reality, you're talking about the loss of like < 5% of the actual important-ish content on the web right now... You're really going to get THAT annoyed over <5%??? If the site is THAT important to you, load it up on your laptop... geesh

I pay for internet access on my phone. When I had my 3 iPhones, it was always annoying how I would go to a site for something and could not access the content. Apple should have done with the iPhone what they did with the laptops... Don't include it, but if the user wants it for whatever reason, let THEM decide if they want to download and install the plugin. Why is that so hard?

That is what people complain about.. not that it isn't included, but that Apple tells someone who just paid a few hundred dollars for a device and the mandatory data plan each month, that "no, we will not allow you to make this decision, we have decided that you are not allowed to have it"... It's bullshit, and some of us wonder why people would put up with that attitide. It's like the customer is always right, unless the company is Apple, then it is the customer that is always wrong and Apple is always right and frankly, that amazes a lot of us. So millions of us went elsewhere.

[Mongo]

Do you really think trying to make this about me really takes focus off of the crap you spew? Seriously? :rofl: Poor Dave.

[SquireSCA]

Do you really think trying to make this about me really takes focus off of the crap you spew? Seriously? :rofl: Poor Dave.

Dude, I am just trying to let you down easy, so please respect that.

[SquireSCA]

It is like Apple intentionally holds stuff back so that they can either sell you an upgrade later on, or sell you a different device to handle whatever deficiency the first device has.

An example... The iPad 2. Why no USB port or SD card slot? You have this awesome large screen, you have tons of processing power... how cool would it be to plug in a portable USB HD? Or better yet, we are at Barber this past weekend and have the GoPro running on Donna's bike. How cool would it be to pop the SD card in, or plug the camera into the USB port and pull in the video and watch it on the large screen, crop it or edit it right there, add a song from iTunes and upload it to YouTube?

But no, Apple keeps that basic stuff out because they want you to have the phone to make calls, but they keep it tiny so that it really doesn't make a good device for reading stuff, browsing or multimedia... that is what the iPad is for... But they don't want you doing too much there, so they intentially leave out basic functions so that in order to really do the things you want, you need to go buy the laptop as well. They want you to buy as many products as possible, because each product only does part of the pie, but they all work together in this wonderful ecosystem, thus locking you in from ever leaving, because you will be like, "shit, that looks really cool, but I have $9,000 of Apple equipment here and a maxed out Best Buy credit card, so I guess I will just have to stick with this stuff for now"...

That's what they do. That's what intentionally withholding options and choices does for consumers. They sell it to you as a benefit, but it oftentimes isn't. It costs you more and locks you into their product cycles and way of doing things in order to make you a customer for life.

But they tell you that you are special, so I guess it is ok. LOL

[SpeedGeek]

God, you're such a hardheaded stubborn ASS. I give up... Enjoy living in your fantasy world of "Dave knows everything and everything should be done the way Dave thinks or it's stupid..."

[TwistyDiva]

Ok, couple things...

First off, partially BECAUSE Apple refused to support flash, and stopped pre-loading it on their macs (although you can still download it yourself), the usage trends have been going down:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cp-flash/all/all

Second, ask yourself - what is flash typically used for:

1) entire website done in flash (these are relatively rare)
2) video, animation, or some other interactive element on a website
3) advertisements, and other annoying popup things

Now... #1 should NEVER be done, and any web developer worth 2 shits should be out of a job if they choose to do an entire site this way... Everyone I know HATES going to websites that are completely done in flash... (don't think flash-based sites suck? Go check out mellowmushroom.com and tell me it's not annoying!)

#2 is fine... when used in moderation.. and I believe that's teh one you are the most upset about.

#3 - UGH, who CARES!?!? I think we're all HAPPY to NOT have those damn ads popping up, or running in the side of the window (EATING CPU as they sit there and do some stupid animation.) Just removing flash from your laptop and then surfing the same websites can actually improve your battery life by like 20-30% because the Flash player isn't sitting there chewing on your CPU (and thus battery) playing all those damn ads...

As far as losing #2 - Video has been increasingly switching over. Games - ok, some people get really bent out of shape on this, but honestly, few of them will play well in a Touch based UI anyhow, so no big loss since they wouldn't work well on a mobile touch based device anyhow.

So, in reality, you're talking about the loss of like < 5% of the actual important-ish content on the web right now... You're really going to get THAT annoyed over <5%??? If the site is THAT important to you, load it up on your laptop... geesh

I could care less about the pissing contest going on here but almost every restaurant out there delivers an online menu & nutrition values written exclusively in Flash. I for one was pissed to find out that because I had an IPhone I could not look at a menu at almost every restaurant that I wanted to review the nutrition stats on. So because Apple (1 entity) decides to take a stand on every website(multiple entities) that use flash - I am stuck in a 2 year contract and not able to view data or content that is important to me.

If they want to take a stand fine, buy out my contract and allow me a personal choice.

[SquireSCA]

God, you're such a hardheaded stubborn ASS. I give up... Enjoy living in your fantasy world of "Dave knows everything and everything should be done the way Dave thinks or it's stupid..."

But see, that is not it. Dave believes in a world where you, I and the other guy can make up our own decisions on how we want to do things. You like a world where the decisions are made for you, so that you don't have to think. They tell you what to buy, what features you want and that makes you happy.

I hated being in that paradigm. And a lot of people are moving away from it. I have been on both sides, seen the benefits and drawbacks of both, you have not. If anything, people like myself are in a better position to describe the different user experiences than folks that are just entrenched in one camp. And no, reading about it, doesn't really qualify you. I could read about driving a Honda versus a Ford, but it doesn't give me the same insight as living with both on a daily basis.

[SquireSCA]

I could care less about the pissing contest going on here but almost every restaurant out there delivers an online menu & nutrition values written exclusively in Flash. I for one was pissed to find out that because I had an IPhone I could not look at a menu at almost every restaurant that I wanted to review the nutrition stats on. So because Apple (1 entity) decides to take a stand on every website(multiple entities) that use flash - I am stuck in a 2 year contract and not able to view data or content that is important to me.

If they want to take a stand fine, buy out my contract and allow me a personal choice.

And Donna, this thing with Mongo, he means nothing to me. The feelings and attraction are completely one sided. I tried to let him down easy, but he just isn't ready or willing to let go.

[TwistyDiva]

And Donna, this thing with Mongo, he means nothing to me. The feelings and attraction are completely one sided. I tried to let him down easy, but he just isn't ready or willing to let go.

LOL - It's starting to sound like Broke Back Mountain around here....

[SquireSCA]

LOL - It's starting to sound like Broke Back Mountain around here....

I don't know... I mean, I don't think I did or said anything to lead him on... but you know how adorable I am.

Sometimes they just can't help themselves. It is a curse sometimes... sigh....

[TwistyDiva]

You do have some sexy blue eyes and nice broad shoulders.... I can understand the attraction

[SquireSCA]

You do have some sexy blue eyes and nice broad shoulders.... I can understand the attraction

See, there ya go. He cannot help himself. Even if I liked guys, I don't know if I would go for a Bear.

Shake that bear!

[Mongo]

I could care less about the pissing contest going on here but almost every restaurant out there delivers an online menu & nutrition values written exclusively in Flash. I for one was pissed to find out that because I had an IPhone I could not look at a menu at almost every restaurant that I wanted to review the nutrition stats on. So because Apple (1 entity) decides to take a stand on every website(multiple entities) that use flash - I am stuck in a 2 year contract and not able to view data or content that is important to me.

If they want to take a stand fine, buy out my contract and allow me a personal choice.

So wait - they forced you to buy the phone? Or are you saying you didn't actually do any sort of research on what you were dropping a bunch of money on and signing a contract for? How exactly is that the fault of the phone manufacturer? It's like being pissed at a car company because your compact car won't tow a gooseneck trailer.

[Mongo]

But see, that is not it. Dave believes in a world where you, I and the other guy can make up our own decisions on how we want to do things. You like a world where the decisions are made for you, so that you don't have to think. They tell you what to buy, what features you want and that makes you happy.

I hated being in that paradigm. And a lot of people are moving away from it. I have been on both sides, seen the benefits and drawbacks of both, you have not. If anything, people like myself are in a better position to describe the different user experiences than folks that are just entrenched in one camp. And no, reading about it, doesn't really qualify you. I could read about driving a Honda versus a Ford, but it doesn't give me the same insight as living with both on a daily basis.

Wow. So you now have no choice but to buy Apple products. Oh but let me guess, that's what you said but it's not what you meant....

Apple has never made me buy any of their products. Not once.

Must be sad to have your life so controlled by advertising or trying to be cool that you can't actually make your own decisions on products based on what they actually do.

[SquireSCA]

So wait - they forced you to buy the phone? Or are you saying you didn't actually do any sort of research on what you were dropping a bunch of money on and signing a contract for? How exactly is that the fault of the phone manufacturer? It's like being pissed at a car company because your compact car won't tow a gooseneck trailer.

I bought into the hype. I got the phone, and once you are in a contract you are kinda stuck with it.

I didn't even think at the time to research whether it had Flash, or could send MMS pictures, or copy and paste, or a host of other basic things that the phone couldn't do. I mean, other smartphones and even cheap flip-phones had been able to do some or all of those things for a couple years at that point, so it didn't even occur to me that the world's most advanced smartphone would be intentionally crippled in those areas...

[SquireSCA]

Wow. So you now have no choice but to buy Apple products. Oh but let me guess, that's what you said but it's not what you meant....

Apple has never made me buy any of their products. Not once.

Must be sad to have your life so controlled by advertising or trying to be cool that you can't actually make your own decisions on products based on what they actually do.

Clearly, they don't require me to buy their products. I have a phone that is over a year old and still does shit that the iPhone 5 won't be able to do, and it isn't even out yet. LOL

[RogueElement]

You do have some sexy blue eyes and nice broad shoulders.... I can understand the attraction

Must be all that time he spends crossing swords with other guys. :up:


And Speed, if you think he's upset by lack of access of 5% of the web, imagine how he'd be if he woke up one day, his Daytona had suddenly lost 7hp and Huey told him that he wasn't going to work on it. :lol:

[Mongo]

I bought into the hype. I got the phone, and once you are in a contract you are kinda stuck with it.

I didn't even think at the time to research whether it had Flash, or could send MMS pictures, or copy and paste, or a host of other basic things that the phone couldn't do. I mean, other smartphones and even cheap flip-phones had been able to do some or all of those things for a couple years at that point, so it didn't even occur to me that the world's most advanced smartphone would be intentionally crippled in those areas...

Research??? Holy shit, people have been whining about flash not being on the iPhone since before it came out. Would have taken just opening your eyes.

It is nice to see you finally admit what the real problem is - you buy into the hype without having the slightest clue what you're buying. Congrats, that just proves right there that you have no room to whine or bitch about anything. You're a classic idiot customer who believes what he's told by the ads. Amazing.

[Mongo]

Must be all that time he spends crossing swords with other guys. :up:


And Speed, if you think he's upset by lack of access of 5% of the web, imagine how he'd be if he woke up one day, his Daytona had suddenly lost 7hp and Huey told him that he wasn't going to work on it. :lol:


You really think that calling me gay is going to somehow be insulting?

[SquireSCA]

Must be all that time he spends crossing swords with other guys. :up:


And Speed, if you think he's upset by lack of access of 5% of the web, imagine how he'd be if he woke up one day, his Daytona had suddenly lost 7hp and Huey told him that he wasn't going to work on it. :lol:

Funny you should mention that.... Took the Daytona in to finally get a dyno tune, and discovered I have either a blown head gasket or a cracked block. Sorta ruined my weekend. Wayne at Power-Tripp Performance in Birmingham has the bike and is diagnosing it today to nail down the issue.

Motor is bone stock, only 5400 miles on it, meticulously cared for, only did 1 track day on it and has no real mods other than some exhaust. He said he has never seen a stock Daytona do that before. Just my freakin luck I guess.

[Mongo]

Clearly, they don't require me to buy their products. I have a phone that is over a year old and still does shit that the iPhone 5 won't be able to do, and it isn't even out yet. LOL

So why is it you keep bitching about what Apple is doing to you - when they're doing nothing at all to you as you're not a customer?

You DO live in a world where you can access what you want. You however cannot buy an Apple product and use flash. So you don't buy an Apple product. Why is this so ridiculously hard for you to figure out/accept?

Holy shit - I figured it out. Your entire issue is that you cannot accept that Apple doesn't want YOU as a customer. You really are such an egotistical fool that it bothers you deep down in your being that they don't want you - when everyone should shouldn't they? You're more messed up than I thought, and that's saying something.

[RogueElement]

Funny you should mention that.... Took the Daytona in to finally get a dyno tune, and discovered I have either a blown head gasket or a cracked block. Sorta ruined my weekend. Wayne at Power-Tripp Performance in Birmingham has the bike and is diagnosing it today to nail down the issue.

Motor is bone stock, only 5400 miles on it, meticulously cared for, only did 1 track day on it and has no real mods other than some exhaust. He said he has never seen a stock bike do that before. Just my freakin luck I guess.

Well, you did buy British. :D

[SquireSCA]

You really think that calling me gay is going to somehow be insulting?

Not at all. Being gay is no longer a an insult. In fact, it is not only socially acceptable, it seems to be considered "hip and cool" even...

So don't sweat it, Bruce.

[SquireSCA]

Well, you did buy British. :D

Yeah, but these 675 motors are pretty much bullet-proof. Wayne specializes in them, spends a ton of time building them, he rides one himself and people drive from up to 1,000 miles away to have him work on their Daytona's, and he is stumped as to how it happened. I guess we will find out, as he is pulling the motor our and tearing it down as we speak.

[Mongo]

Not at all. Being gay is no longer a an insult. In fact, it is not only socially acceptable, it seems to be considered "hip and cool" even...

So don't sweat it, Bruce.

You seem upset about that. Gay peeps don't want you either huh?

[SquireSCA]

You seem upset about that. Gay peeps don't want you either huh?

Oh, I am not upset.

I just don't like to hurt your feelings, even if you are a douche online...

[SpeedGeek]

Get a room you two!!!! ;)

[SquireSCA]

No way in hell I am getting a room with Mongo.

[Mongo]

No way in hell I am getting a room with Mongo.

Good idea, if you're this upset by a company not caring about you it'll be really bad when you're shot down by an old fat guy...

[Ringo®]

I'm not trolling if I'm responding directly to things being said. While you may not want to read the back and forth, it's not that difficult to ignore if you choose to do so. Just as I ignore many of the ridiculous things Dave has posted.

I think it's funny. But let's call a spade a spade here. If you/Squire post in a thread and the follow up post is from Squire/you, you can bet your paycheck an argument is about to form. If anybody at all here thinks I'm wrong (other than you).....please speak up now.

Aside from that, I think if the internet was never invented, you guys would be best friends.

[Mongo]

I think it's funny. But let's call a spade a spade here. If you/Squire post in a thread and the follow up post is from Squire/you, you can bet your paycheck an argument is about to form. If anybody at all here thinks I'm wrong (other than you).....please speak up now.

Aside from that, I think if the internet was never invented, you guys would be best friends.

If there internet wasn't here I'd interact with Dave as much as I do now - I see him occasionally at a bike thing and that's it. We do agree on some stuff and he doesn't bring up the stuff he says here - or he'd get the same response in person. I don't hate him by any stretch but friends? Not going to happen.

[SquireSCA]

I think it's funny. But let's call a spade a spade here. If you/Squire post in a thread and the follow up post is from Squire/you, you can bet your paycheck an argument is about to form. If anybody at all here thinks I'm wrong (other than you).....please speak up now.

Aside from that, I think if the internet was never invented, you guys would be best friends.

His attraction to me is more sexual than anything... Remember being a kid and liking a girl, but you didn't want to admit it so you would hit her with your shoe or call her names or something?

It's like dat.

[TwistyDiva]

So wait - they forced you to buy the phone? Or are you saying you didn't actually do any sort of research on what you were dropping a bunch of money on and signing a contract for? How exactly is that the fault of the phone manufacturer? It's like being pissed at a car company because your compact car won't tow a gooseneck trailer.

Again I could care less about your pissing contest....

As for a product that is supposed to have all the bells and whistles? It doesn't. When I purchase a car I assume because it has a transmission it will shift into the gear I put it into and it will move in that direction. Not everybody wants to be a geek, they want to buy a product and be able to read a simple menu. Most consumers didn't even know what the hell Flash was until it was too late and by that time Apple and AT&T had you by the balls.

[Ringo®]

His attraction to me is more sexual than anything... Remember being a kid and liking a girl, but you didn't want to admit it so you would hit her with your shoe or call her names or something?

It's like dat.

Did you shave your head because you were tired of pulling gum out of your hair?

[Mongo]

Again I could care less about your pissing contest....

As for a product that is supposed to have all the bells and whistles? It doesn't. When I purchase a car I assume because it has a transmission it will shift into the gear I put it into and it will move in that direction. Not everybody wants to be a geek, they want to buy a product and be able to read a simple menu. Most consumers didn't even know what the hell Flash was until it was too late and by that time Apple and AT&T had you by the balls.

The product was not supposed to have all the bells and whistles if you consider flash to be a bell or a whistle. It has never had flash. If you currently own an iPhone and have issues with it not having flash that is 100% your problem for buying a product without actually knowing anything about it.

I find it hilarious it's their fault you couldn't be bothered to learn a bit about what you're buying.

[RogueElement]

The product was not supposed to have all the bells and whistles if you consider flash to be a bell or a whistle. It has never had flash. If you currently own an iPhone and have issues with it not having flash that is 100% your problem for buying a product without actually knowing anything about it.

I find it hilarious it's their fault you couldn't be bothered to learn a bit about what you're buying.

Didn't you, yourself, say that most Apple users buy the product and just want it to work? Or maybe that was Speed. Why would they do research on something that "just works?" Your average user isn't going to understand what all is coded in Flash and what isn't. They just want it to work. Hell, I'd be willing to bet most people still don't know what Flash is.

[SquireSCA]

Didn't you, yourself, say that most Apple users buy the product and just want it to work? Or maybe that was Speed. Why would they do research on something that "just works?" Your average user isn't going to understand what all is coded in Flash and what isn't. They just want it to work. Hell, I'd be willing to bet most people still don't know what Flash is.

Well, when he said he just wanted it to work, he didn't really mean it to work all the time, or on everything...

Most people don't know what Flash is, but every Apple owner knows what a red X is. ;-)

[TwistyDiva]

The product was not supposed to have all the bells and whistles if you consider flash to be a bell or a whistle. It has never had flash. If you currently own an iPhone and have issues with it not having flash that is 100% your problem for buying a product without actually knowing anything about it.

I find it hilarious it's their fault you couldn't be bothered to learn a bit about what you're buying.

Well then we are equally amused in this thread...

Why would I own an Iphone? I bought mine used, didn't play their games, no fuss, no muss & no contract - but lots of people did. I was not under contract and gave them plenty of opportunity to win my business and they didn't. I did however pay for a data plan and was supposed to be able to access the general internet. I couldn't because while most websites utilize some portion of flash in their development - Apple doesn't like it. I also couldn't finish a single phone call without it being dropped. AT&T's solution was to turn off the 3G... Really? Yeah - the IPhone was supposed to be state of the art technology with bells & whistles (watch movies, listen to music, send txt messages, check email, surf the internet - all on your phone). Coming from someone who witnessed man walking on the moon - I would think you got that but this is more about chumming the water then anything else. In 8 pages of threads - What is your point? You think by insulting me and a lack of research makes delivering a substandard product right? :deadhorse:

I get the whole consumer beware stance but what AT&T and Apple delivered bordered on false advertising and holds about as much validity as your opinion.

You keep your substandard product... I expect more for my dollars and cents.

[SquireSCA]

Mongo says...

3530

[Mongo]

Well then we are equally amused in this thread...

Why would I own an Iphone? I bought mine used, didn't play their games, no fuss, no muss & no contract - but lots of people did. I was not under contract and gave them plenty of opportunity to win my business and they didn't. I did however pay for a data plan and was supposed to be able to access the general internet. I couldn't because while most websites utilize some portion of flash in their development - Apple doesn't like it. I also couldn't finish a single phone call without it being dropped. AT&T's solution was to turn off the 3G... Really? Yeah - the IPhone was supposed to be state of the art technology with bells & whistles (watch movies, listen to music, send txt messages, check email, surf the internet - all on your phone). Coming from someone who witnessed man walking on the moon - I would think you got that but this is more about chumming the water then anything else. In 8 pages of threads - What is your point? You think by insulting me and a lack of research makes delivering a substandard product right? :deadhorse:

I get the whole consumer beware stance but what AT&T and Apple delivered bordered on false advertising and holds about as much validity as your opinion.

You keep your substandard product... I expect more for my dollars and cents.

I'm sorry if you find the fact that you didn't do even basic research on the phone as an insult - but you didn't do any obviously. The single biggest complaint since they first came out 4 or 5 years ago has been flash. Apple has never advertised that it will work with flash. Your issue isn't the product which was delivered as advertised, your issue is that you expected something the product doesn't do - they can't be faulted because of your expectations.

BTW - most websites do not utilize flash. Most actually don't have any flash on them. A pretty large majority really...

[RogueElement]

I'm sorry if you find the fact that you didn't do even basic research on the phone as an insult - but you didn't do any obviously. The single biggest complaint since they first came out 4 or 5 years ago has been flash. Apple has never advertised that it will work with flash. Your issue isn't the product which was delivered as advertised, your issue is that you expected something the product doesn't do - they can't be faulted because of your expectations.

BTW - most websites do not utilize flash. Most actually don't have any flash on them. A pretty large majority really...

You expect the average user to go shopping around tech blogs and apple forums prior to making a simple enough purchase as a phone? (Ok, maybe they arent so simple anymore, but you get the idea.) Its not like it was in the marketing campaign to say "View the web, sans Flash, on your mobile device!"

[SquireSCA]

You expect the average user to go shopping around tech blogs and apple forums prior to making a simple enough purchase as a phone? (Ok, maybe they arent so simple anymore, but you get the idea.) Its not like it was in the marketing campaign to say "View the web, sans Flash, on your mobile device!"

Yeah, in fact the marketing was just the opposite... Photoshoping in Flash content to cover up the red X's on the screen, "Bringing you the entire web the way it was meant to be seen"... Those were the things that Apple was doing at the time.

I don't seem to remember an ad that said, "A multimedia powerhouse, but don't expect to snap pics and MMS them to all your friends with other smartphones or flip phones"....

Or, "Loaded with lots of office productity features, except for copying and pasting within documents"...

Maybe I missed those ads? haha

[Mongo]

You expect the average user to go shopping around tech blogs and apple forums prior to making a simple enough purchase as a phone? (Ok, maybe they arent so simple anymore, but you get the idea.) Its not like it was in the marketing campaign to say "View the web, sans Flash, on your mobile device!"

I would expect them to ask a simple question - "What won't it do?" And seriously, you alone have whined about it for 4 years. Not knowing is a bullshit excuse. Caveat emptor anyone? Amazing how much hand holding people expect. Poor little consumer is too dumb to actually watch the evening news or even read one review on a product before they piss away their money and it's all the big bad companies fault....

[SquireSCA]

I would expect them to ask a simple question - "What won't it do?" And seriously, you alone have whined about it for 4 years. Not knowing is a bullshit excuse. Caveat emptor anyone? Amazing how much hand holding people expect. Poor little consumer is too dumb to actually watch the evening news or even read one review on a product before they piss away their money and it's all the big bad companies fault....

I am sure the kid working at the Apple stand would tell you all the things that it can't do... LOL

[Mongo]

I am sure the kid working at the Apple stand would tell you all the things that it can't do... LOL

Why wouldn't they? I can guarantee they won't if you don't ask...

[RogueElement]

I would expect them to ask a simple question - "What won't it do?" And seriously, you alone have whined about it for 4 years. Not knowing is a bullshit excuse. Caveat emptor anyone? Amazing how much hand holding people expect. Poor little consumer is too dumb to actually watch the evening news or even read one review on a product before they piss away their money and it's all the big bad companies fault....

You expect a lot. You know how many female friends I've forced myself into going car shopping with because they don't know to (or don't think to) ask questions aside from "How's the gas mileage?" and "What colors does it come in?"

Perhaps its just something younger people do, but regardless, its more common than you'd expect.

[Mongo]

You expect a lot. You know how many female friends I've forced myself into going car shopping with because they don't know to (or don't think to) ask questions aside from "How's the gas mileage?" and "What colors does it come in?"

Perhaps its just something younger people do, but regardless, its more common than you'd expect.

You should quit enabling them.

I go car shopping with my wife who knows more about the cars she wants than I do including what she wants to spend. She doesn't think you should be an idiot going into a deal where you're spending that kind of money.

[Ringo®]

Why wouldn't they?

Really? You can't think of 1 reason why a retail sales person (who I would assume makes commission) wouldn't want to point out the pitfalls of the product they are trying to sell you.

[TwistyDiva]

I'm sorry if you find the fact that you didn't do even basic research on the phone as an insult - but you didn't do any obviously. The single biggest complaint since they first came out 4 or 5 years ago has been flash. Apple has never advertised that it will work with flash. Your issue isn't the product which was delivered as advertised, your issue is that you expected something the product doesn't do - they can't be faulted because of your expectations.

BTW - most websites do not utilize flash. Most actually don't have any flash on them. A pretty large majority really...


You're inability to substantiate anything with merit or value continues to unravel... You claim that a large majority of websites don't utilize flash...

Flash use in the travel destination niche is upwards of 80%+
Flash use in fashion nears 90%
Flash use in PHP Programming sites is probably significantly less than 5%

Flash is really good at selling a small variety of something based on emotional appeal - less than a dozen choices based on beautiful scenery, blending music and motion, etc. Niches that are monetized by this type of marketing tend to use flash a lot.

Likewise, Flash is bad at presenting a lot of data. It's much easier to use long pages of HTML, search results, large catalog pages and so on for this type of marketing.

If you find yourself in a niche (like a department store selling clothes - a mix of lots of data but also fashion) that requires both an appeal to emotion and data management, you tend to use a basic data system, but then add Flash inside that data (much as you would add an image) to attempt to combine both worlds. Many entertainment blogs fit into this category.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of sites that *should* be data-driven sites (like travel booking sites that are selling cheap tickets to places people have already decided to go to) get confused and use Flash when they should not, because they were either sold a bill of goods by a design firm or because they don't realize that although people may make a decision to visit a place due to emotion (Paris! It's so beautiful!), they don't always book based on emotion (Another damn business meeting in Paris. Let me find a cheap flight here...).

1.2 billion mobile phones are Flash-capable
70 percent of online gaming sites run Flash
98 percent of Internet-enabled desktops use it
85 percent of top 100 Web sites use Flash
No. 1 platform for video on the Web – 75 percent of all videos use Flash, including Hulu, Disney and YouTube
2-3-million-person Flash developers community
90 percent of creative professionals have Adobe software on their desktops

With numbers and market penetration like that why wouldn't I expect Apple to support Flash? Why would I even consider it to be unsupported? I tire of your unsubstantiated opinion.

[Mongo]

Still comes down to you being pissed because Apple dared not to listen to what Dave tells them to do....

I tire of your ego based opinion.

[TwistyDiva]

Still comes down to you being pissed because Apple dared not to listen to what Dave tells them to do....

I tire of your ego based opinion.

Ummm yeah that is the equivalent of not having anything more intelligent to say other than, "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo - Stick your head in doo doo". Which is the problem with your argument. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[SquireSCA]

You're inability to substantiate anything with merit or value continues to unravel... You claim that a large majority of websites don't utilize flash...

Flash use in the travel destination niche is upwards of 80%+
Flash use in fashion nears 90%
Flash use in PHP Programming sites is probably significantly less than 5%

Flash is really good at selling a small variety of something based on emotional appeal - less than a dozen choices based on beautiful scenery, blending music and motion, etc. Niches that are monetized by this type of marketing tend to use flash a lot.

Likewise, Flash is bad at presenting a lot of data. It's much easier to use long pages of HTML, search results, large catalog pages and so on for this type of marketing.

If you find yourself in a niche (like a department store selling clothes - a mix of lots of data but also fashion) that requires both an appeal to emotion and data management, you tend to use a basic data system, but then add Flash inside that data (much as you would add an image) to attempt to combine both worlds. Many entertainment blogs fit into this category.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of sites that *should* be data-driven sites (like travel booking sites that are selling cheap tickets to places people have already decided to go to) get confused and use Flash when they should not, because they were either sold a bill of goods by a design firm or because they don't realize that although people may make a decision to visit a place due to emotion (Paris! It's so beautiful!), they don't always book based on emotion (Another damn business meeting in Paris. Let me find a cheap flight here...).

1.2 billion mobile phones are Flash-capable
70 percent of online gaming sites run Flash
98 percent of Internet-enabled desktops use it
85 percent of top 100 Web sites use Flash
No. 1 platform for video on the Web – 75 percent of all videos use Flash, including Hulu, Disney and YouTube
2-3-million-person Flash developers community
90 percent of creative professionals have Adobe software on their desktops

With numbers and market penetration like that why wouldn't I expect Apple to support Flash? Why would I even consider it to be unsupported? I tire of your unsubstantiated opinion.

Welcome to Mongo's world. Facts and numbers might as well be left at the door. He will simply reply with, "Then don't buy the phone"...

What he misses, is that this is not whether you would buy the phone. I can criticize murder or grand theft for being wrong. But in Mongo's world, if we applied his logic, you cannot criticize those things because "Nobody is forcing you to do them"...

It takes years of study, and setting aside pesky things like facts, logic, common sense, et al... in order to understand the world that Mongo lives in.

[TwistyDiva]

Welcome to Mongo's world. Facts and numbers might as well be left at the door. He will simply reply with, "Then don't buy the phone"...

What he misses, is that this is not whether you would buy the phone. I can criticize murder or grand theft for being wrong. But in Mongo's world, if we applied his logic, you cannot criticize those things because "Nobody is forcing you to do them"...

It takes years of study, and setting aside pesky things like facts, logic, common sense, et al... in order to understand the world that Mongo lives in.

Well I guess in his defense its hard to state the facts with your butt cheeks wrapped around your neck.

[Ringo®]

"Nanny Nanny Boo Boo - Stick your head in doo doo". Which is the problem with your argument.

Hey now. Let's keep it G rated

[TwistyDiva]

Too much? :D

[SquireSCA]

Well I guess in his defense its hard to state the facts with your butt cheeks wrapped around your neck.

His problem is that his job distorts his view. His wife owns or runs WERA. Mongo is the Director or Racing or something. Nothing wrong with that, it is pretty cool actually.

However, his work life is a world where his opinions matter. He may have to justify things from time to time, but at the end of the day, he calls the shots. He has opinions on how things should work, and people have to accept that because of who he is. So he is used to saying things and having people listen to him, because they have to.

And no matter what he says, that attitude bleeds through here. He will try to argue semantics and distort things because here, people don't give a shit who he is or what his position is. Here, his opinions don't define the rules. Here, his opinions don't supercede ours and they certainly don't supercede facts. He doesn't often bring them, because the "Because I said so" mentality that coverns his career does get him used to just saying things and having people have to listen to him.

He's never wrong, no matter what the debate, he just "says things", and almost without exception never posts a link, an article, a case study, facts, figures or hard numbers to support anything that he says. And when you do all of those things to support your argument, he will just ignore it all and switch gears to something else or try to pick apart your words and take the argument away from the facts that he cannot counter, and instead turn it into a pissing match over semantics and hope that people will forget what the orginal argument was, and more imporantly, that he lost it.

I genuinely like the guy, but he can be a complete ass because it never even crosses his mind that he can be wrong. I am strong opinioned as well, but I am at least open to me being wrong. I just expect the other person to PROVE it.

And "because I said so", doesn't cut it, sorry Mongo...

[TwistyDiva]

His problem is that his job distorts his view. His wife owns or runs WERA. Mongo is the Director or Racing or something. Nothing wrong with that, it is pretty cool actually.

However, his work life is a world where his opinions matter. He may have to justify things from time to time, but at the end of the day, he calls the shots. He has opinions on how things should work, and people have to accept that because of who he is. So he is used to saying things and having people listen to him, because they have to.

And no matter what he says, that attitude bleeds through here. He will try to argue semantics and distort things because here, people don't give a shit who he is or what his position is. Here, his opinions don't define the rules. Here, his opinions don't supercede ours and they certainly don't supercede facts. He doesn't often bring them, because the "Because I said so" mentality that coverns his career does get him used to just saying things and having people have to listen to him.

He's never wrong, no matter what the debate, he just "says things", and almost without exception never posts a link, an article, a case study, facts, figures or hard numbers to support anything that he says. And when you do all of those things to support your argument, he will just ignore it all and switch gears to something else or try to pick apart your words and take the argument away from the facts that he cannot counter, and instead turn it into a pissing match over semantics and hope that people will forget what the orginal argument was, and more imporantly, that he lost it.

I genuinely like the guy, but he can be a complete ass because it never even crosses his mind that he can be wrong. I am strong opinioned as well, but I am at least open to me being wrong. I just expect the other person to PROVE it.

And "because I said so", doesn't cut it, sorry Mongo...

Or accuse me of having my opinion fed to me by you.... how leetle do he know.

[SquireSCA]

Or accuse me of having my opinion fed to me by you.... how leetle do he know.

Yeah, cause you never disagree with me. LOL

[SquireSCA]

I am Jerry, and Mongo is my Newman...

[Mongo]

Ummm yeah that is the equivalent of not having anything more intelligent to say other than, "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo - Stick your head in doo doo". Which is the problem with your argument. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Nope, already posted the responses way earlier in this thread. So now the only logical conclusion is he is pissed at Apple because they dared not listen to the great and knowitall Dave. Otherwise he'd quit repeating the same stuff.

[SquireSCA]

Nope, already posted the responses way earlier in this thread. So now the only logical conclusion is you are pissed at Apple because they dared not listen to the great and knowitall Dave. Otherwise you'd quit repeating the same stuff.

Just because it is the only conclusiong that you can come up with, doesn't mean it is the only conclusion to draw.

That's what I am talking about. This isn't your world, where we both have opinions but yours wins because of who you are.

SHe points out just how prevalent Flash is even today, with hard numbers that you can go and Google for yourself, and makes a valid point from it... that to not support that kind of usage is silly for "the world's best smartphone"...

Yet you ignore it, and bring nothing to the table.

Typical.

[Mongo]

Well I guess in his defense its hard to state the facts with your butt cheeks wrapped around your neck.

Nice. You two do make a wonderful pair. Pitiful little couple that Apple has been so so mean to. Poor poor you :(

[rr_double_rr]

Wow, Mongo bashing and I'm missing it. Sadly, I'm in Texas.

[RogueElement]

Wow, Mongo bashing and I'm missing it. Sadly, I'm in Texas.

That just means you have a whole extra hour to enjoy it before bedtime. :up:

[SquireSCA]

Nice. You two do make a wonderful pair. Pitiful little couple that Apple has been so so mean to. Poor poor you :(

Not mean, just a short sighted business practice in our opinions.

And seeing as how Android is pulling away and clobbering them in the phone market, and poised to do the same in the tablet market to the extent that Apple's only recourse is to try and use the courts by launching a gazillion lawsuits, I think that perhaps even they realize that perhaps they made some mistakes. LOL

[Mongo]

Just because it is the only conclusiong that you can come up with, doesn't mean it is the only conclusion to draw.

That's what I am talking about. This isn't your world, where we both have opinions but yours wins because of who you are.

SHe points out just how prevalent Flash is even today, with hard numbers that you can go and Google for yourself, and makes a valid point from it... that to not support that kind of usage is silly for "the world's best smartphone"...

Yet you ignore it, and bring nothing to the table.

Typical.


She said the same shit you did. Same shit I've already addressed. Same shit that is still well, shit. Try saying something that doesn't come down to Apple is a big meany and maybe you'll get a new response but as long as you both keep saying the same dumb things over and over and over and over and over again - well guess what, my response is oddly enough going to be the same.

[SquireSCA]

She said the same shit you did. Same shit I've already addressed. Same shit that is still well, shit. Try saying something that doesn't come down to Apple is a big meany and maybe you'll get a new response but as long as you both keep saying the same dumb things over and over and over and over and over again - well guess what, my response is oddly enough going to be the same.

Same shit millions of people have said.

But they are all wrong, because Mongo said so.

We get it.

[Mongo]

Not mean, just a short sighted business practice in our opinions.

And seeing as how Android is pulling away and clobbering them in the phone market, and poised to do the same in the tablet market to the extent that Apple's only recourse is to try and use the courts by launching a gazillion lawsuits, I think that perhaps even they realize that perhaps they made some mistakes. LOL

You argue against their "business practices" like a zealot preaching on the street corner at the top of your lungs. Back to the only logical conclusion for the vehemence. They have wronged poor Dave and now they have wronged his fair lady as well. It's time to take up arms and fight the evil empire all across the interwebs! Well, at least as far as one web board where no one actually gives a shit so maybe the stupid being spewed will be ignored. Oh shit, there's someone with a grasp of the language and a willingness to call you out on it. Poor Dave. Now people can see you for what you really are....

[Mongo]

Same shit millions of people have said.

But they are all wrong, because Mongo said so.

We get it.

Huh? Now it's millions of people who hate Apple with the passion you do? I call bullshit - you're quoting numbers, time to back that up little mister I have sites and facts and figures.

BTW - I have never said there is a single thing wrong with not buying a product that won't use flash. I think that's the smart move if you want to access flash using sites. What I'm saying is blaming a company for your choice of product is stupid - and it is ;)

[Mongo]

Welcome to Mongo's world. Facts and numbers might as well be left at the door. He will simply reply with, "Then don't buy the phone"...

What he misses, is that this is not whether you would buy the phone. I can criticize murder or grand theft for being wrong. But in Mongo's world, if we applied his logic, you cannot criticize those things because "Nobody is forcing you to do them"...

It takes years of study, and setting aside pesky things like facts, logic, common sense, et al... in order to understand the world that Mongo lives in.

Okay, back to pointing out just how damned stupid you are in this crusade of yours.

You are seriously trying to draw an analogy between a choice of phone and murder or grand theft? Seriously? Are you truly that out of your ****ing gourd you think they're in any way the same thing? :rofl:

[Mongo]

Wow, Mongo bashing and I'm missing it. Sadly, I'm in Texas.

Not really sure it's working out well for the wannabe bashers. So far Dave has tried to be insulting by calling me gay and shown himself to be too stupid to do his own research rather than believing advertising.

[SquireSCA]

All people see is us making valid points on technology, and you flying into a hissy fit any time someone criticizes Apple and going off the deep end.

[Mongo]

All people see is us making valid points on technology, and you flying into a hissy fit any time someone criticizes Apple and going off the deep end.

I'm off the deep end? :rofl: I'm not the one comparing a cellphone choice to theft and murder...

But hey, I do have an IQ of less than 90 don't I. :D

[SquireSCA]

Huh? Now it's millions of people who hate Apple with the passion you do? I call bullshit - you're quoting numbers, time to back that up little mister I have sites and facts and figures.

BTW - I have never said there is a single thing wrong with not buying a product that won't use flash. I think that's the smart move if you want to access flash using sites. What I'm saying is blaming a company for your choice of product is stupid - and it is ;)

Millions of people have left Apple for Android. Do you really need to see the stats to know that is true?

http://www.mobilityfeeds.com/mobility-feed/2011/04/past-3-months-report-confirms-android-leadership-and-apple-left-far-behind-google.html

Android is growing in leaps and bounds, and the more it grows the faster it will grow as more and more developers move away from the niche platforms and focus on the dominant one, as that is where the largest source of revenue lies.

Like was said before, we all know people that used to have iPhones and now have Android phones. But hardly anyone knows Droid users that switched to the iPhone.

I mean seriously, the fact that Apple loses a lot of business to Android, or that people are choosing Android over Apple in huge numbers is common knowledge, 15 seconds on Google will tell you that. So do I have to provide the sales numbers to you? Were not the sales numbers and marketshare stats from the other thread enough?

[SquireSCA]

I'm off the deep end? :rofl: I'm not the one comparing a cellphone choice to theft and murder...

But hey, I do have an IQ of less than 90 don't I. :D

Again, your comprehension is lacking.

Nobody said that murder was the same as a cell phone. Only a moron would draw that conclusion.

What was said was that if we applied your logic to other things... etc... The point being, you seem to think that it is not ok to criticize something if you have a choice not to use it.

That's the problem when you skim a post just looking for a word or two that you can sieze and try to play semantics with. You entirely miss the point and it makes it very apparent that you didn't read, or understand the argument.

"Makes you look like an ass is what it does, Ed"...

Whoever gets the reference there gets a free beer the next time I see you. :-)

[Mongo]

Millions of people have left Apple for Android. Do you really need to see the stats to know that is true?

http://www.mobilityfeeds.com/mobility-feed/2011/04/past-3-months-report-confirms-android-leadership-and-apple-left-far-behind-google.html

Android is growing in leaps and bounds, and the more it grows the faster it will grow as more and more developers move away from the niche platforms and focus on the dominant one, as that is where the largest source of revenue lies.

Like was said before, we all know people that used to have iPhones and now have Android phones. But hardly anyone knows Droid users that switched to the iPhone.

I mean seriously, the fact that Apple loses a lot of business to Android, or that people are choosing Android over Apple in huge numbers is common knowledge, 15 seconds on Google will tell you that. So do I have to provide the sales numbers to you? Were not the sales numbers and marketshare stats from the other thread enough?

Still not understanding what you read or even what you write huh?

I know millions have swapped phones. Never said they didn't. What I want to know is where are the millions that are doing the same thing you are - incessantly whining about a company they don't actually do business with...

Seriously dude, if you're not going to actually read what you yourself post why are you bothering?

[SquireSCA]

Still not understanding what you read or even what you write huh?

I know millions have swapped phones. Never said they didn't. What I want to know is where are the millions that are doing the same thing you are - incessantly whining about a company they don't actually do business with...

Seriously dude, if you're not going to actually read what you yourself post why are you bothering?

I wonder how many people whine about people whining about phones?

[Mongo]

I wonder how many people whine about people whining about phones?

Probably not many. I know I do when they they try to blame the company for them being idiots in their buying choices. I'd do the same for any product though, not just cell phones. You don't eat meat and you go to a steak house? Yep. Yer an idiot. Want to tow a trailer and buy a smart car? Idiot. Lots and lots of examples of customers who are idiots out there, not just you and phones.

[Ringo®]

"Makes you look like an ass is what it does, Ed"...

Whoever gets the reference there gets a free beer the next time I see you. :-)

Ferris Bueler

[rr_double_rr]

Ferris Bueler

Nice, it didn't click with me until you said it but now I hear that red headed chick saying it.

[SquireSCA]

Probably not many. I know I do when they they try to blame the company for them being idiots in their buying choices. I'd do the same for any product though, not just cell phones. You don't eat meat and you go to a steak house? Yep. Yer an idiot. Want to tow a trailer and buy a smart car? Idiot. Lots and lots of examples of customers who are idiots out there, not just you and phones.

Nobody blaimed Apple for making us buy anything. We blaimed them for shitty service with AT&T and intentionally crippling their phones.

Whether I bought 50 of them, or if I never owned a single one is irrelevant. It is, always has been and will continue to be a valid criticism of Apple.

[SquireSCA]

Ferris Bueler

You get the beer!

[SquireSCA]

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/1042545/apple_loses_market_share_in_uk_as_android_continue s_to_grow.html

http://gigaom.com/apple/iphone-continues-losing-market-share-to-android/

I can do this all day...

[TwistyDiva]

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/1042545/apple_loses_market_share_in_uk_as_android_continue s_to_grow.html

http://gigaom.com/apple/iphone-continues-losing-market-share-to-android/

I can do this all day...

Well you could but WE do have a life... plus you have to watch Mongo, if you prove him wrong he blames it on your ego or better yet some spoon-fed opinion. He isn't interested in actual facts. Let us retire from this for now and go cry about Apple and the lack of Flash... at least in Mongo's poor pathetic mind.

[SpeedGeek]

Did you even READ that 2nd link Dave?

Yes, Iphone lost a LITTLE market share over that time... However, they also state that it was probably mostly because:
1) constrained supplies of iPhone 4 at the time and everyone holding out to get it instead of buying 3GS
2) That the exclusivity deal with AT&T seriously hurts the numbers and only now with the Verizon option is that getting better, but until people's contracts expire we won't see much of a change...

Seriously, in a lot of ways, it's an apples to oranges comparison - AND, you keep showing market share numbers of the Android platform as a whole instead of 1 manufacturer vs apple (granted there's only 1 iOS manufacturer out there). Apple still sells nearly as many (or maybe it's more, I don't remember) phones than Samsung or HTC, and they consistently have gotten higher customer satisfaction scores than any of them...

The big loser in this battle is RIM - they're getting HAMMERED, as both iOS + Android eat into them and they put up horrible buggy products to try to compete. If that company makes it another 5 years I'll be amazed...

[Mongo]

Nobody blaimed Apple for making us buy anything. We blaimed them for shitty service with AT&T and intentionally crippling their phones.

Whether I bought 50 of them, or if I never owned a single one is irrelevant. It is, always has been and will continue to be a valid criticism of Apple.

So you don't blame Apple for not allowing flash? Odd, that's not what you've been saying the entire time. So are you lying now or were you lying then? Or is it just that you really don't pay attention to what you say?

[Mongo]

Well you could but WE do have a life... plus you have to watch Mongo, if you prove him wrong he blames it on your ego or better yet some spoon-fed opinion. He isn't interested in actual facts. Let us retire from this for now and go cry about Apple and the lack of Flash... at least in Mongo's poor pathetic mind.

Wow, still pissed that you couldn't be bothered to learn about the phone you were buying huh? Sucks to be you I guess.

As for actual facts, um, might want to read what I've posted. Not arguing any facts. Agreed 100% with all the facts. You suck at comprehension as bad as Dave evidently. Bummer. I'd suggest you guys don't use text messages to communicate...

[SquireSCA]

So you don't blame Apple for not allowing flash? Odd, that's not what you've been saying the entire time. So are you lying now or were you lying then? Or is it just that you really don't pay attention to what you say?

You really can't help yourself can you? Are you really this desperate? LOL

I blame them for not supporting Flash. Always have, always will.

I blame myself for buying their products, but that is not, nor has it ever been what this is about no matter how much you try to make it.

I know what I said. Everyone else does.

You are the only one that cannot seem to figure it out....

[SquireSCA]

Did you even READ that 2nd link Dave?

Yes, Iphone lost a LITTLE market share over that time... However, they also state that it was probably mostly because:
1) constrained supplies of iPhone 4 at the time and everyone holding out to get it instead of buying 3GS
2) That the exclusivity deal with AT&T seriously hurts the numbers and only now with the Verizon option is that getting better, but until people's contracts expire we won't see much of a change...

Seriously, in a lot of ways, it's an apples to oranges comparison - AND, you keep showing market share numbers of the Android platform as a whole instead of 1 manufacturer vs apple (granted there's only 1 iOS manufacturer out there). Apple still sells nearly as many (or maybe it's more, I don't remember) phones than Samsung or HTC, and they consistently have gotten higher customer satisfaction scores than any of them...

The big loser in this battle is RIM - they're getting HAMMERED, as both iOS + Android eat into them and they put up horrible buggy products to try to compete. If that company makes it another 5 years I'll be amazed...

They lost a little marketshare, while Android almost doubled theirs. That is a huge gap, and it is just getting wider.

Nobody cares about manufacturer versus manufacturer. That isn't the world that we live in. The whole point and part of the large appeal of Android is that you do not have to limit yourself to a single manufacturer.

You can pick any carrier. Any manufacturer. All sorts of options. Large or small? Slider keyboard or on-screen? What kind of camera?

That is why your comparison is weak. Who gives a shit if Apple sells as many phones as just one of the other manufacturers. That is the benefit. You can go wherever you want, and get whatever kind of phone you want based on features, form factor, price point.

That is the point that Apple misses too. Why? Because money doesn't follow the manufacturer. It follows the PLATFORM and INSTALLED BASE. That is where the money is, and that is where Apple is already losing, and where they will soon start getting slaughtered as they fall further and further behind.

They are going to relive the early 1990's PC arena all over again...

[RogueElement]

So you don't blame Apple for not allowing flash? Odd, that's not what you've been saying the entire time. So are you lying now or were you lying then? Or is it just that you really don't pay attention to what you say?

And here you are slamming Donna for her comprehension. Dave's "intentionally crippling their phones" refers to, in part, not supporting Flash.

[Georgiacbr]

And here you are slamming Donna for her comprehension. Dave's "intentionally crippling their phones" refers to, in part, not supporting Flash.

Yea I agree one of the weakest Link on any Iphone or Ipad.

[Mongo]

You really can't help yourself can you? Are you really this desperate? LOL

I blame them for not supporting Flash. Always have, always will.

I blame myself for buying their products, but that is not, nor has it ever been what this is about no matter how much you try to make it.

I know what I said. Everyone else does.

You are the only one that cannot seem to figure it out....

Oh I figured it out, told you I did. You're pissed off so much that they won't make what YOU want them to make you can't shut up about it every time someone says "Apple".

I find it hilarious still that your ego is so messed up that you don't get how ridiculous it is for you to think you can call a company to task because they make a product you don't like. :rofl:

[Mongo]

And here you are slamming Donna for her comprehension. Dave's "intentionally crippling their phones" refers to, in part, not supporting Flash.

It isn't crippling when the phone was designed from the get go without flash support. They made a conscious choice to make the product as they did. The customers made a conscious choice (well, other than Dave, he did what he was told by the ads) to buy the product as it was made.

There is no company out there that as an obligation to make a product any particular way except one - they have to make what sells. Seems the iPhone has sold enough to justify their design decisions.

[Mongo]

You know this whole thing is funny as hell. Saying Apple should make on open system that handles flash is like saying since the OEM's make inline fours that sell much much better and everyone likes them Ducati should all of the sudden start making inline fours and they are somehow inherently evil for not doing so (maybe an analogy even Dave could get).

[DecepticonDon]

the best comment

IE...the number 1 browser...for downloading another browser

[RogueElement]

It isn't crippling when the phone was designed from the get go without flash support. They made a conscious choice to make the product as they did. The customers made a conscious choice (well, other than Dave, he did what he was told by the ads) to buy the product as it was made.

There is no company out there that as an obligation to make a product any particular way except one - they have to make what sells. Seems the iPhone has sold enough to justify their design decisions.

So you'll sit there and say that the # of people that would have given a pass at an iPhone with Flash support > # of people that would have gotten an iPhone if it HAD Flash support?

[Mongo]

So you'll sit there and say that the # of people that would have given a pass at an iPhone with Flash support > # of people that would have gotten an iPhone if it HAD Flash support?

Huh? I don't give a shit what the numbers are - they are a moot point. The issue is whining about one company not offering something another does offer. I am merely talking about one person who is pissed off at Apple and makes a huge deal of his being pissed off. That's it. Whichever phone is better is merely opinion and the coolest part about all the different phones is everyone can get what they like. There are plenty of things other phones do better/different that the iPhone. Never said otherwise. That is why I keep saying people aren't paying attention to what I actually have typed out....

[RogueElement]

Huh? I don't give a shit what the numbers are - they are a moot point. The issue is whining about one company not offering something another does offer. I am merely talking about one person who is pissed off at Apple and makes a huge deal of his being pissed off. That's it. Whichever phone is better is merely opinion and the coolest part about all the different phones is everyone can get what they like. There are plenty of things other phones do better/different that the iPhone. Never said otherwise. That is why I keep saying people aren't paying attention to what I actually have typed out....

So you don't give a shit what the facts are in a debate. Good to know.

[Mongo]

So you don't give a shit what the facts are in a debate. Good to know.

Seriously? Have you gone to the Dave school of comprehension? What facts are in debate? Where have I argued any of the facts people have posted? I have repeatedly agreed with the facts. Why is that so hard for you to see?

[TwistyDiva]

So you don't give a shit what the facts are in a debate. Good to know.

Give that man a dollar!!! That is exactly what the last 14 pages have actually been about...

[Mongo]

Give that man a dollar!!! That is exactly what the last 14 pages have actually been about...

Ooohhhh, swing and a miss. You were doing so well when you stayed silent too.

[TwistyDiva]

Ooohhhh, swing and a miss. You were doing so well when you stayed silent too.

Nah you just haven't said anything worth responding to... its just this weird emotional rant. Sweet Dreams!

[RogueElement]

Seriously? Have you gone to the Dave school of comprehension? What facts are in debate? Where have I argued any of the facts people have posted? I have repeatedly agreed with the facts. Why is that so hard for you to see?

Well, if you don't care about what ideas are brought up (and actually agree with what arguements we bring to the table), that would mean the majority of your time here is spent in mutual masturbation between you and Dave to see who can get the last word in. Not a boat I'd want to be in. But to each, their own.

[Mongo]

Nah you just haven't said anything worth responding to... its just this weird emotional rant. Sweet Dreams!

Aw, I'm sorry, I seem to have hurt your feelings.

[Mongo]

Well, if you don't care about what ideas are brought up (and actually agree with what arguements we bring to the table), that would mean the majority of your time here is spent in mutual masturbation between you and Dave to see who can get the last word in. Not a boat I'd want to be in. But to each, their own.

Um, how many times do I have to repeat all I'm doing is pointing out when Dave is being an idiot before you pay attention? Having your facts correct doesn't mean you can't be an idiot in the conclusions you draw ;)

[RogueElement]

Um, how many times do I have to repeat all I'm doing is pointing out when Dave is being an idiot before you pay attention? Having your facts correct doesn't mean you can't be an idiot in the conclusions you draw ;)

Well so far, you're in the vocal minority with that assumption. Is Dave an idiot? Probably not. Overzealous? Overwhelmingly so.

[Mongo]

Well so far, you're in the vocal minority with that assumption. Is Dave an idiot? Probably not. Overzealous? Overwhelmingly so.

His overzealousness about Apple is idiocy in and of itself so I'm sticking with my prior conclusion. :D

His idiocy is also in large part why it's a seeming minority - have you seen how much shit he posts when he's protecting his ego? Good lord the man uses paragraphs when mere words would suffice.

[TroyBoy30]

You expect a lot. You know how many female friends I've forced myself into going car shopping with because they don't know to (or don't think to) ask questions aside from "How's the gas mileage?" and "What colors does it come in?"

Perhaps its just something younger people do, but regardless, its more common than you'd expect.

Just shows the iq of the girls you know is all! :lol:

[RogueElement]

Just shows the iq of the girls you know is all! :lol:

Or the age of those you know. :lol:

[SquireSCA]

It isn't crippling when the phone was designed from the get go without flash support. They made a conscious choice to make the product as they did. The customers made a conscious choice (well, other than Dave, he did what he was told by the ads) to buy the product as it was made.

There is no company out there that as an obligation to make a product any particular way except one - they have to make what sells. Seems the iPhone has sold enough to justify their design decisions.

But it wasn't just Flash. It was MMS, copy and Paste, all sorts of things. And as the market evolved, they haven't. Still no SD card support, customized menu's and desktop, the notification system is from the stone age, etc...

None of this is about my purchase, not directly at least. It is about us discussing different technologies and market strategies.

I am already on a phone that blows the iPhone out of the water. My year+ old phone does things that the upcoming iPhone 5 won't be able to do. There is nothing to be pissed about.

We are geeks we like talking about this shit. You get your panties into a wad each time because you drank the kool aid, so any criticism of Apple, is interpreted as an attack on you by proxy...

[Mongo]

But it wasn't just Flash. It was MMS, copy and Paste, all sorts of things. And as the market evolved, they haven't. Still no SD card support, customized menu's and desktop, the notification system is from the stone age, etc...

None of this is about my purchase, not directly at least. It is about us discussing different technologies and market strategies.

I am already on a phone that blows the iPhone out of the water. My year+ old phone does things that the upcoming iPhone 5 won't be able to do. There is nothing to be pissed about.

We are geeks we like talking about this shit. You get your panties into a wad each time because you drank the kool aid, so any criticism of Apple, is interpreted as an attack on you by proxy...


Same old stupid shit over and over and over again right down to trying to call me an Apple fanboi when you've been told repeatedly that I use PC's for the vast majority of things. Like I said, idiocy. If your phone is so great why don't you talk about it instead of bitching about Apple? Oh yeah, Apple dares to keep making products you don't want.... Poor Dave.

BTW - geeks like talking about shit yes. You're not talking. You're bitching. About a 4 year old subject. 4. Years. Same bitching. 4 years Dave. Seriously, that is idiocy.

[SquireSCA]

Same old stupid shit over and over and over again right down to trying to call me an Apple fanboi when you've been told repeatedly that I use PC's for the vast majority of things. Like I said, idiocy. If your phone is so great why don't you talk about it instead of bitching about Apple? Oh yeah, Apple dares to keep making products you don't want.... Poor Dave.

BTW - geeks like talking about shit yes. You're not talking. You're bitching. About a 4 year old subject. 4. Years. Same bitching. 4 years Dave. Seriously, that is idiocy.

Um, not really. People post topics, we all throw in content, and you cry and complain every time someone criticizes Apple.

You call it bitching when we laugh and point things out, post figures and facts that support those opinions and laugh at people when they talk about how great something is, when they really haven't seen what the other sida has to offer, etc... you call it bitching, because you cannot actually refute anything, so you try to essentially discredit what the other person says by attempting to minimalize it... You try to twist it, call it bitching, change the topic to something else... going so far as to say that you don't care about facts and numbers... It's always the same with you.

You have opinions and you seem to think that they are the only valid ones. And you are wrong on that, clearly.

And when other people's opinions are based on something like facts or numbers, you don't handle that very well. You turn to name calling, you get irratable, you go off on unrelated tangents and try to take things out of contect in the hopes that people won't notice that while the other person may have brought actual data and evidence to the table, you didn't.

That is why you always lose these things.

The topic is Flash support. Most people, including a shitload of Apple customers, see that as a huge gaping hole in the iPhone and iPad product line. And the stance on Flash, dove-tails into Apple's attitude in general, where they intentionally cripple devices and take away consumer choices in order to sell you additional products that have those other features.

Your attempt to say that it doesn't matter because we have other choices is correct in that we don't have to put up with it if we choose not to. Duh. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Apple does exactly what we pointed out.

And some of us feel that it may prove to be a blunder, as Apple tried similar things with the PC market 2 decades ago and ended up relegating themselves to niche status while the PC went on to dominate the world's market for desktop units. Now, is Apple happy with that? Are they still making lots of money? Sure, but some of us scratch our heads and wonder why a company that can obviously innovate and put out revolutionary and quality products, would so obviously choose to drop the ball in some of the areas that they do.

And so we discuss these things, and banter it about, etc... And that is where you come in, crying and complaining because someone was mean to Apple. If it bothers you so much, STFU and go find another thread to troll as we are obviously having a good discussion that interests us. if it doesn't you, then leave and quit yer bitchen.

As to it being a 4 year old topic, yes, and that is what makes it so silly in our eyes. Because many of the issues, still have not been addressed. And they won't, and that is why we think that Apple is being silly. If you don't agree, great, your opinon has been noted, now go find another thread and GSB member to stalk. LOL

[Mongo]

See, paragraph after paragraph of the same exact shit.

And seriously, you truly believe you can win or lose a discussion on the web? More proof of idiocy.

[RogueElement]

See, paragraph after paragraph of the same exact shit.

And seriously, you truly believe you can win or lose a discussion on the web? More proof of idiocy.

And the fact that you spend so much time trying to point out the idiocy of some guy on a message board doesnt put you any lower on the idiot totem pole.

[Georgiacbr]

And the fact that you spend so much time trying to point out the idiocy of some guy on a message board doesnt put you any lower on the idiot totem pole.

http://rlv.zcache.com/never_argue_with_an_idiot_they_drag_you_down_postc ard-p239710004417020124trdg_400.jpg

[Mongo]

And the fact that you spend so much time trying to point out the idiocy of some guy on a message board doesnt put you any lower on the idiot totem pole.

Not really taking a lot of time trust me :D

[SquireSCA]

See, paragraph after paragraph of the same exact shit.

And seriously, you truly believe you can win or lose a discussion on the web? More proof of idiocy.

Look in the mirror, Hoss. You clearly do.

I say paragraph after paragraph because like when trying to explain something to a 4 year old, you have to keep repeating it for it to sink in.

Listen, you are clearly not a very technical person. I understand that a lot of this stuff is over your head. You looked at the phone, it met your needs so you bought it and are happy with it. WE GET IT.

So why are you even here? If internet arguing is so lame and such proof of idiocy, why do you go out of your way to bust into every discussion, start an argument, continue it for days, say that you don't care about facts or numbers, etc...?

Leave these discussions for the technical people that enjoy and understand this stuff far better than you...

[TwistyDiva]

It's really amusing how this has all gotten so twisted... How I'm just sooo pissed at Apple and either my ego is feeding my opinion or Dave is, not sure which at this point. Bottle line is this.... And be careful Mongo cause I'm taking this back to what the actual topic is really about, Apple has always been about creating devices to serve THEIR content to customers. Adobe (and Google) have been more about enabling users to create their own content. Just because Apple doesn’t like Flash, doesn’t mean the rest of the internet has to follow suit. I hope Flash Player 10 makes Apple eat their words.

[SquireSCA]

It's really amusing how this has all gotten so twisted... How I'm just sooo pissed at Apple and either my ego is feeding my opinion or Dave is, not sure which at this point. Bottle line is this.... And be careful Mongo cause I'm taking this back to what the actual topic is really about, Apple has always been about creating devices to serve THEIR content to customers. Adobe (and Google) have been more about enabling users to create their own content. Just because Apple doesn’t like Flash, doesn’t mean the rest of the internet has to follow suit. I hope Flash Player 10 makes Apple eat their words.

And that is a great point. Everything Apple sells you, is designed to sell you something else. So just like leaving key features out of one product so that you have to buy another one to get it, they also do it in a way for other revenue streams.

Why would they want you watching streaming video via Flash for free, when they can sell you iTunes videos?

Why would they want you to just click on any song in your music collection, regardless of source, and select it as a ring tone, when they can sell you a ringtone of a song you already bought via iTunes?

Why would they want you to be able to install your own apps or apps from the dev community to get the functionality that you want, when they can sell you an app that fills in some of the gaps that they intentionally left out of their $500 device, via the App Store? EDIT: Remember how Apple went to court because they were trying to make Jail-breaking an iPhone illegal? They had to protect their ability to sell you the apps that you wanted in order to get the features that they intentionally left out. And that is what it is all about. They want everything locked down, so that you have no choice but to be spoonfed whatever scraps they will allow you to pay for as you suckle from the corporate teat.

And that perhaps is why it irritates me when people drink the kool aid. They buy into this paradigm where every product is set up in such a way as to be a gateway to purchasing another product or service, because it is almost designed to be flawed from the get go.

Which is why Google's approach is refreshing. It gives all the functionality you could want, and let's you decide. You decide the carrier, the options, the size, the format, the apps you want, etc... And you do it in such a way that you don't have Big Brother watching over your shoulder telling you what you can and cannot do with a device that you paid hundreds of dollars for. Imagine buying a LCD TV and having Sony tell you that you cannot watch MotoGP with it? That you have to pay to use their streaming content in order to watch it, for no other reason than they want extra money for their investors...

Mongo sees no problem with this paradigm because we have choices to not buy it, and that is where any logic that his brain can muster, ends. Yes, we can choose not to buy that phone or TV, but we can also choose to point out WHY we didn't get that TV, and WHY it falls short, and WHY what they are doing is stupid in our eyes.

But don't use facts, numbers or statistics, market trends, sales numbers or technical data, because Mongo proudly claims that he doesn't care at all about any of that "factual stuff"... All he cares about is his ill-informed opinions and it drives him nuts when people ignore them and see him as fool that he is.

But I am glad that he is here. Every village needs their idiot. ;-)

[SpeedGeek]

Yeah, um, Flash is dieing... Even Adobe has given in and made a tool that auto-converts Flash video to other formats for websites to use...

Flash just consumes too much processor resources on mobile devices, and that's where computing is moving to - Phones, Tablets and laptops, all running off of battery power. Why run an OS on the hardware, capable of playing video, then running a Flash player plugin on TOP of that, just to play video the OS could have done in the first place if the content provider had just used a more standard format? That's eating 2x the processor cycles (if not more) to do the same thing. That's a no-no in any embedded device running off battery, regardless of platform!

[SpeedGeek]

And you know, the same is true for Java, Shockwave, and all the other plugin mechanisms there are out there that were developed over the years to display content that the browser couldn't do natively. As the browsers have gotten more powerful, and the web technologies have grown to do things that previously you HAD to do in the plugins, there is less and less reason to use technologies that require the plugins...

[SquireSCA]

Those are all great points from a programmer's perspective.

And totally irrelevant from the user experience and consumer perspective.

Nobody cares why it works or why it doesn't. Nobody cares what CPU cycles are used or if there is a better way to do something.

What we care about is whether or not it WORKS. We care about someone sending us a link to something that we want or need, and when we click on it and the part that we need(gave plenty of examples already), works. If it does, we are happy, regardless of what is going on behind the scenes.

When we see red X's or an error message that says that your browser does not support this content, then we are not happy.

I personally don't care about Flash, or HTML5 or whatever. All I as a consumer care about, is that when I go to websites, that the shit works.

And on mine, it does. ;-)

[TwistyDiva]

Yeah, um, Flash is dieing... Even Adobe has given in and made a tool that auto-converts Flash video to other formats for websites to use...

Flash just consumes too much processor resources on mobile devices, and that's where computing is moving to - Phones, Tablets and laptops, all running off of battery power. Why run an OS on the hardware, capable of playing video, then running a Flash player plugin on TOP of that, just to play video the OS could have done in the first place if the content provider had just used a more standard format? That's eating 2x the processor cycles (if not more) to do the same thing. That's a no-no in any embedded device running off battery, regardless of platform!

Why is Flash garbage? Oh, because it's a resource hog? Is that because Stevo tells you that it is so? HTML5 is too. Apple blocked 3rd Party access to hardware acceleration APIs sooo, Flash couldn't access hardware acceleration making for a crap experience.

You don't miss free content on your devices? So you like paying for stuff you could get for free, legally, via the web if you had Flash. Adobe does make quality products you nub. The fact you love drinking the Kool-Aid means you're happy buying overpriced, technology that's 6 months old the day Apple releases it.

[SquireSCA]

Why is Flash garbage? Oh, because it's a resource hog? Is that because Stevo tells you that it is so? HTML5 is too. Apple blocked 3rd Party access to hardware acceleration APIs sooo, Flash couldn't access hardware acceleration making for a crap experience.

You don't miss free content on your devices? So you like paying for stuff you could get for free, legally, via the web if you had Flash. Adobe does make quality products you nub. The fact you love drinking the Kool-Aid means you're happy buying overpriced, technology that's 6 months old the day Apple releases it.

Careful!

Talking about API's and things is bordering on that fancy "factual stuff"... it will just make Mongo and Company mad... And you wouldn't like him when he is mad... LOL

[SquireSCA]

And I don't even care if people look at all these facts and say, "You know, that may be true but I really like the product, it's easy and does what I need."...

See, I can respect that, as we should all make decisions based on our personal needs, likes, budgets, etc...

It's the burying the head in the sand and pretending that those limitations or things don't exist that I think a lot of people find irritating.

It's like owning a Ducati. If that is your preference, great, doesn't matter why I like them, I just do and am willing to pay for it when my income allows. But if I stood here pretending that they didn't cost more, or that the valve intervals were not more expensive and twice the frequency of the competition, then people would be like, WTF?

Admitting the facts and accepting them is fine. But pretending that they don't exist is completely different, and that is what people like Mongo... well, let's be honest... here it is just Mongo that doesn't seem to be able to wrap his head around...

[SquireSCA]

What I would love to see, is Adobe drop Apple support on all of their products. See how Apple will feel if there was no more Photoshop for them, or any of the other Adobe products that Apple needs in the graphics world. LOL

[SquireSCA]

This is the sort of stuff I am referring to:

http://techcrunch.com/2010/01/27/apple-has-a-solution-for-the-ipads-missing-sd-card-slot-and-usb-port-adapters/

This is evident across the entire product line. Why won't Apple support SD cards? Because you would be able to buy the cheaper 32GB unit and add another 64GB from any microSD card from Best Buy, instead of buying the larger more expensive unit.

Same things with the phones. You bought an 8GB iPhone that still works, but as your music collection grows and you rip a couple DVD's or whatever, you run out of space. A $21 16GB MicroSD card would solve that, but why let the customer do that, when they can force you to wait out your contract, and then spend $200 on the new iPhone 32GB and lock you into another 2 year contract? It is a way to force new sales via strong-arming upgrades so that their sales numbers look better than they are. That is why they can sell so many phones and not have their marketshare really increase, and in some cases they had lots of sales and saw the marketshare decrease.

See, I see that as great for the stockholders, but shitty for the consumers. Granted, none of us have to be customers of Apple, but it is still a shitty business practice IMHO.

That's why they cripple things. That's why they lock everything down. That's why they limit choices, so that oftentimes your only "choice" is to buy something else from them.

And that is why I prefer Android. It isn't just the specs. It isn't just the out of the box features and superior hardware. It is the fact that Android is a system that is suited to people that know what they want and are free to do it, rather than some corporate greed mandating what I can do with the product that I paid for.

If you are fine with that, great. But a lot of people are not, and the number of people choosing the Android world over Apple, is growing and growing, and the reasons that many of us have listed, are a large part of why that is.

[Mongo]

Word.

[jimgl3]

Go Hang a Salami! I'm a Lasagna Hog!

[SpeedGeek]

YOU care when your battery is shot after playing 2 hours of videos when it could have gone 6 hours playing the SAME video in a NATIVE format instead of FLASH....

[SpeedGeek]

Why is Flash garbage? Oh, because it's a resource hog? Is that because Stevo tells you that it is so? HTML5 is too. Apple blocked 3rd Party access to hardware acceleration APIs sooo, Flash couldn't access hardware acceleration making for a crap experience.


Donna, you TOTALLY F'ing KNOW better than to challenge me on technical merits and reasoning on why one technology performs better than another. DON'T GO THERE. You WILL lose.

[SquireSCA]

Mike, I watch Netflix at the gym after listening to music for awhile and the battery life is fine. Shit, I can underclock my phone and run the CPU at a lower Mhz when doing certain things if I want to adjust how much power it consumes. I think you can control screen brightness and that's it.

Your phone uses less battery, because like the iPad, it doesn't multitask. It is physically doing a lot less, so uses less power.

[SquireSCA]

Donna, you TOTALLY F'ing KNOW better than to challenge me on technical merits and reasoning on why one technology performs better than another. DON'T GO THERE. You WILL lose.

So prove why. Because for a technical guy, you are one of the most anti-technical guys that I know. LOL

But by all means, show us some more stuff that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the user experience. As if anyone cares why they cannot use something. All they care about is that they can't while all their friends can. :-)

[SpeedGeek]

Loading the flash player consumes extra resources..Why? Because it's an interpreted language run through a virtual machine - ie: It's translating on the fly into the lower level OS's calls. ie: SLOW. (or at least slower than native code.)

It's been shown time and time again that flash player to play the same video typically consumes 2-3x the CPU power. That's BATTERY LIFE.

Hardware accel API's - nice, sure, but also a HUGE security risk, and those work primarily by allowing the runtime to talk directly to the hardware. Often when you do that, yes you get more speed, but you ALSO risk the stability of the entire system - if that runtime has a problem, it doesn't just crash itself, it crashes the whole system. How much would you like it if your phone just up and crashed every time you hit a flash-based site because the developer made some error or maliciously wrote code to crash your device? Or worse, used it as a backdoor to get access to the file system and steal information?

You might not see it, but there ARE reasons behind the "madness"... Design choices that are made, sometimes for reasons you agree with, sometimes for ones you disagree with. But regardless, they are made, and usually with security, stability, and ease of use as the primary driving factors.

[TwistyDiva]

Donna, you TOTALLY F'ing KNOW better than to challenge me on technical merits and reasoning on why one technology performs better than another. DON'T GO THERE. You WILL lose.

Believe it or not this issue really isn't technical, it's economical. Bottom line is Jobs is self-serving and would loose loads of $$ were he to allow flash. I could care less if your geekier than I am Mike. Facts are that Flash is useful. Old technology yes but useful and hopefully Adobe will step up to the challenge and kick Apple's ass.

What is not useful is a system that costs more in the long run, offers no options and controls you and your content.

[TwistyDiva]

YOU care when your battery is shot after playing 2 hours of videos when it could have gone 6 hours playing the SAME video in a NATIVE format instead of FLASH....

I take my phone off the charger at 5 AM every morning. I run multiple apps simultaneously throughout the day, listen to music, make phone calls, send txt messages until I put it back on the charger at 11 PM every night. I do have an extended battery but I am considered a heavy user since it is a highly capable device.

[SquireSCA]

Loading the flash player consumes extra resources..Why? Because it's an interpreted language run through a virtual machine - ie: It's translating on the fly into the lower level OS's calls. ie: SLOW. (or at least slower than native code.)

It's been shown time and time again that flash player to play the same video typically consumes 2-3x the CPU power. That's BATTERY LIFE.

So maybe having batteries that can be replaced or upgraded for higher capacity ones for those people that want those sorts of things might be an option. Like it is with every other smartphone on the planet.


Hardware accel API's - nice, sure, but also a HUGE security risk, and those work primarily by allowing the runtime to talk directly to the hardware. Often when you do that, yes you get more speed, but you ALSO risk the stability of the entire system - if that runtime has a problem, it doesn't just crash itself, it crashes the whole system. How much would you like it if your phone just up and crashed every time you hit a flash-based site because the developer made some error or maliciously wrote code to crash your device? Or worse, used it as a backdoor to get access to the file system and steal information?

If Apple can do it on their desktop OS, why can't they do it on their mobile OS? See, it isn't like they cannot accomodate it, they just choose not to on CERTAIN devices. And frankly, the problems you describe are theoretical, as I do have Flash on my phone and I don't see the crashes from browsing Flash sites...

If Apple cannot figure out how to secure their OS without completely walling it off and stripping away features, then perhaps you are right and they should not support industry standard API's like Flash.


You might not see it, but there ARE reasons behind the "madness"... Design choices that are made, sometimes for reasons you agree with, sometimes for ones you disagree with. But regardless, they are made, and usually with security, stability, and ease of use as the primary driving factors.

Agreed, but what you and others don't see is that more often than not, it is about $$.

We don't support SD card slots, but we are happy to sell you a converter for $30.

We won't support an HDMI port, but we will sell you a reduced quality converter for a price.

We won't support USB ports, but again, we can sell you a converter.

We won't let you watch certain kinds of video, but we are happy to sell you the content on iTunes.

We won't let you install your own app to your own phone, but we will sell you an app from the App Store.

We won't let you just pick a song for a ring tone, but we will sell you one from iTunes.

We won't let you upgrade your memory, but we will sell you a new phone that is identical to the one you have but just has the extra 16mb of memory that you need.

It's all about scheduled obsolecence, giving you a small piece at a time but always castrating it and holding back so that they can sell you a shiny new one in a couple months...

The list goes on and on and on... Follow the money, as that is almost always the reason that they do what they do. All companies do, but some are more predatory about it than others and Apple is the Great White Shark in that ocean...

[SpeedGeek]

Whatever... Enjoy living in your fantasy world. I have no time for this BS anymore now that school has started back up...

Use what you like, and if you feel Android is better, be my guest... I have better things to do with my time than get in a pissing contest with somebody who can't see anything from any perspective other than his own.

Arguing with an idiot online is just a waste of time...

[SquireSCA]

Whatever... Enjoy living in your fantasy world. I have no time for this BS anymore now that school has started back up...

Use what you like, and if you feel Android is better, be my guest... I have better things to do with my time than get in a pissing contest with somebody who can't see anything from any perspective other than his own.

Arguing with an idiot online is just a waste of time...

Fantasy.

So you don't have to pay for additional memory, by purchasing a new phone?

So Apple does allow you to install your own apps?

So Apple does multitask?

So Apple does let you just pick any song on the phone and use it as a ring tone?

So Apple does have HDMI, and doesn't give you a lower quality adapter that requires you to purchase yet more stuff?

So Apple doesn't support Flash on their other devices or OS's?

Who is living in a fantasy world? LOL

[SquireSCA]

And Mike, just a reminder...

Which of us is the one that has owned both products personally for extended periods of time and lived with both on a daily basis and is in a good position to discuss more than one perspective as a result?

Hint: It isn't you or Mongo.

The people arguing for Apple, are primarly the ones that have just used Apple phones for the past several years. The ones arguing against, are the people that have owned and used BOTH phones, and can therefire draw direct comparisons based on real world experience...

[jkhonea]

Actually, I own both. The Incredible 2 for me and the iPhone 4 for Mary. I can argue the sides quite competently. But it's not worth my time as you only see your point so I would rather spend my day working on my projects that actually make money for my family to live than watch you post novel after novel.

[Ringo®]

I think we all understand that Mongo likes apple products while Squire does not. Knowing this, how much longer do you think this thread will go on. Do I hear an opening bid of 20 pages?

[Mongo]

Believe it or not this issue really isn't technical, it's economical. Bottom line is Jobs is self-serving and would loose loads of $$ were he to allow flash. I could care less if your geekier than I am Mike. Facts are that Flash is useful. Old technology yes but useful and hopefully Adobe will step up to the challenge and kick Apple's ass.

What is not useful is a system that costs more in the long run, offers no options and controls you and your content.

Well that goes totally against your whole thing about Apple losing lots of money due to people buying flash supporting devices. Which is it? Using flash will lose them money or not using flash will lose them money? Really kind of hard to have it both ways...

[Mongo]

I take my phone off the charger at 5 AM every morning. I run multiple apps simultaneously throughout the day, listen to music, make phone calls, send txt messages until I put it back on the charger at 11 PM every night. I do have an extended battery but I am considered a heavy user since it is a highly capable device.

Huh. I take mine off charge, use it for multiple apps throughout the day and put it back on charge a couple days later.

[Mongo]

I think we all understand that Mongo likes apple products while Squire does not. Knowing this, how much longer do you think this thread will go on. Do I hear an opening bid of 20 pages?

Could be, I'm running scoring at Nashville this weekend and it's boring as hell stuck up in the tower by myself all day.

[Mongo]

Oh yeah. Word.


:rofl:

[SquireSCA]

Actually, I own both. The Incredible 2 for me and the iPhone 4 for Mary. I can argue the sides quite competently. But it's not worth my time as you only see your point so I would rather spend my day working on my projects that actually make money for my family to live than watch you post novel after novel.

I know why you and Mary prefer the iPhone for her. Simplicity.

But that doesn't really make a difference to the argument at hand, does it? We are talking about why Apple chooses to leave key features out, and when you strip away most of the marketing crap, the answer is money. If you can do all sorts of basic stuff for yourself, then you wouldn't feel compelled to buy all that extra stuff from them, would you?

[jkhonea]

Interesting, you know why we have it for Mary? Really? Have you been speaking to her personally and know her thoughts on it? I rather resent the sentiment your presenting there. Perhaps you took something I said initially about her having one as simply being for simplicity sake, but there's much more to it than that. But since you seem to know us better than we know ourselves, please dazzle me with why we bought it.

Wait, nevermind, don't.

[SquireSCA]

Interesting, you know why we have it for Mary? Really? Have you been speaking to her personally and know her thoughts on it? I rather resent the sentiment your presenting there. Perhaps you took something I said initially about her having one as simply being for simplicity sake, but there's much more to it than that. But since you seem to know us better than we know ourselves, please dazzle me with why we bought it.

Wait, nevermind, don't.

You said in the past why she got it. It appealed to her, it was simple and easy to use, did the basic stuff she needed, etc...

Was my interpretation of that in error?

[TwistyDiva]

Well that goes totally against your whole thing about Apple losing lots of money due to people buying flash supporting devices. Which is it? Using flash will lose them money or not using flash will lose them money? Really kind of hard to have it both ways...

I don't believe anyone here is posting in a foreign language...

Yes Apple has lost part of the market share because people like myself want more options and more value for my dollar and cents.

Yes Apple would loose money if they allowed Flash because their end-users would have access to more FREE content.

Funny how the Android market is able to still make a profit while allowing all this free content.



Huh. I take mine off charge, use it for multiple apps throughout the day and put it back on charge a couple days later.

Actually my battery life is pretty much the same as it was when I had an IPhone. I guess it depends on the usage.

[SquireSCA]

I don't believe anyone here is posting in a foreign language...

Yes Apple has lost part of the market share because people like myself want more options and more value for my dollar and cents.

Yes Apple would loose money if they allowed Flash because their end-users would have access to more FREE content.

Funny how the Android market is able to still make a profit while allowing all this free content.




Actually my battery life is pretty much the same as it was when I had an IPhone. I guess it depends on the usage.

Mongo can only follow one thing at a time.

When you say that they can lose money, he only sees one angle. But phone sales are but one revenue stream. Apple also makes money selling you the things that you can get for free, but they prevent it and force you to buy it from their App Store or iTunes. That makes investors very happy, but does little to help the consumer apart from making their wallet lighter...

[Mongo]

I don't believe anyone here is posting in a foreign language...

Yes Apple has lost part of the market share because people like myself want more options and more value for my dollar and cents.

Yes Apple would loose money if they allowed Flash because their end-users would have access to more FREE content.

Funny how the Android market is able to still make a profit while allowing all this free content.




Actually my battery life is pretty much the same as it was when I had an IPhone. I guess it depends on the usage.


Too funny.

So which would lose Jobs more money? You said allowing flash would. You said allowing flash would sell more phones. Again - can't have it both ways. You can't argue that them losing money is bad for them and then argue that choosing to do something to make more money is also bad.

Android doesn't make a profit. Google gives it away for free. Hence it's popularity.

[Mongo]

Mongo can only follow one thing at a time.

When you say that they can lose money, he only sees one angle. But phone sales are but one revenue stream. Apple also makes money selling you the things that you can get for free, but they prevent it and force you to buy it from their App Store or iTunes. That makes investors very happy, but does little to help the consumer apart from making their wallet lighter...

No I'm seeing both pretty easily. I know that arguing Jobs is an asshole for making money by not using flash doesn't work with the argument Jobs is an asshole for not selling more phones because he won't use flash.

You can try like hell but you can't have the exact same thing be good and bad.

[Mongo]

Word.

[SquireSCA]

What people don't realize is that this isn't about the phone. It's about the ecosystem, of which the phone is one componant.

Apple has an ecosystem, with a slew of devices, each carefully crafted to give you just enough to want it, but not enough that you won't need the other devices to round out the ecosystem. Then at the core of that is the content, that they control. They control what you can do with the phone, so that if you want something, you have to go to them and pay them to get it, even if everyone else has access to such content for free. That is not the Apple way.

People tried to jailbreak the phone so that they could load their own content to their phones, and Apple took them to court and tried to prosectute them, luckily a judge said, "Hell no, they bought the device they can alter it if they want". But that clearly shows Apple's intent. To them, it is not your device. You may have paid for it, but it is the conduit for the next tier in their revenue stream; The content.

While their staff may be well trained to take care of you at the Apple Bar, their only goal is to sell you a device, which will lead to you needing another device, and so on, and then when you want stuff on it you will put your credit card number into iTunes and they can just print themselves money for charging for free content and make the stockholders very very happy.

I understand if people are fine with that world or don't mind it, but lets at least be honest about what it is and call a spade a spade...

[Ringo®]

Oh yeah. Word.


:rofl:

I've got 20. Do I hear 25?:D

[Mongo]

Yawn. Word. :rofl:

[SquireSCA]

Too funny.

So which would lose Jobs more money? You said allowing flash would. You said allowing flash would sell more phones. Again - can't have it both ways. You can't argue that them losing money is bad for them and then argue that choosing to do something to make more money is also bad.

Android doesn't make a profit. Google gives it away for free. Hence it's popularity.

Mongo, unlike you, our goal is not the best interests for Apple. We are not here wasting time in message boards trying to "have their back" like you are.

Our discussions may touch on areas that history in many industries, including their own, has shown what may prove to be blunders or bad practices, but we come from the perspective of what is best for us, the consumer.

And simply feel that many of the "technical" arguments are just bullshit justifications for what the real goal is, which is to sell hardware and then control the content so that the customers have to come back to you and pay more money to get what would otherwise be free or included.

[Ringo®]

Yawn. Word. :rofl:

Do you have an alter ego?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h430/Malldogg/word_up_cameo.jpg

[TwistyDiva]

Mongo, unlike you, our goal is not the best interests for Apple. We are not here wasting time in message boards trying to "have their back" like you are.

Our discussions may touch on areas that history in many industries, including their own, has shown what may prove to be blunders or bad practices, but we come from the perspective of what is best for us, the consumer.

And simply feel that many of the "technical" arguments are just bullshit justifications for what the real goal is, which is to sell hardware and then control the content so that the customers have to come back to you and pay more money to get what would otherwise be free or included.

For Mongo in leetle bitty words....

Knowledge is power! :headpop:

[Mongo]

Mongo, unlike you, our goal is not the best interests for Apple. We are not here wasting time in message boards trying to "have their back" like you are.

Our discussions may touch on areas that history in many industries, including their own, has shown what may prove to be blunders or bad practices, but we come from the perspective of what is best for us, the consumer.

And simply feel that many of the "technical" arguments are just bullshit justifications for what the real goal is, which is to sell hardware and then control the content so that the customers have to come back to you and pay more money to get what would otherwise be free or included.

Don't confuse me making fun of you and the stupid you spew on the subject as absolute support for Apple. I support a customers right to buy whatever they choose and nothing more. If you said the same stupid shit about ANY company I'd have the same response.

Word.

[Mongo]

Do you have an alter ego?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h430/Malldogg/word_up_cameo.jpg

I look way more like the cowboy in the Village People :D

[Mongo]

For Mongo in leetle bitty words....

Knowledge is power! :headpop:


Knowledge is power. From the person still pissed off she didn't know an iPhone wouldn't use flash. You're not very good at this are you?

[TwistyDiva]

Knowledge is power. From the person still pissed off she didn't know an iPhone wouldn't use flash. You're not very good at this are you?

Is that the best ya got? :rofl:

[SquireSCA]

Do you have an alter ego?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h430/Malldogg/word_up_cameo.jpg

it is what he says when he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

He still doesn't know what a fanboy he is.

Having preferences and strong opinions isn't what makes you a fanboy. Again to use the Ducati analogy, being a fan or having a brand preference alone does not a fanboy make. Knowing and admitting the limitations or negative aspects, but being fine with them or being willing to put up with them, is all well and good. It is the DENIAL of them that makes you a fanboy.

eg. "I know that Ducati's are not neccessarily faster or higher quality than what comes out of Japan, but I like they way they look and sound and the L-Twin motor better suits my riding style. So I put up with the higher maintenance costs because it is worth it to me"...

Much different than, "Ducati is the best, they are the fastest and they don't cost any more than a Japanese bike to maintain"...

That's a fanboy. The ignoring anything negative about the product. We could be talking about a sports team, anything really... If you like what you like, fine, but when your team is 1-17 for the season, only an idiot would refuse to acknowledge that their teem needs improvement. Or if the cost of owning a certain bike is double that of another, claiming otherwise makes you a fanboy.

And in the case of Apple, when we point out very clearly defined and documented shortcomings, saying you are fine with that is one thing. Pretending that they don't exist, is being a fanboy.

That is as simple as I can make it.

[SquireSCA]

Is that the best ya got? :rofl:

Yes, it is.

He actually thinks that people are pissed, because he is, so he assumes everyone else must be.

This is Mongo's world and don't you forget it. HIS WORD IS THE LAWZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mongo]

Is that the best ya got? :rofl:

In response to you saying knowledge is power? I don't need anything better ;)

[Mongo]

Yes, it is.

He actually thinks that people are pissed, because he is, so he assumes everyone else must be.

This is Mongo's world and don't you forget it. HIS WORD IS THE LAWZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is? Suhweet!!!!!!!!!!!! Beer for everyone!

Who is pissed off anyway? Good lord man, if stupid pissed me off I'd never log on to the internet.

[TwistyDiva]

In response to you saying knowledge is power? I don't need anything better ;)

Then we agree you are lacking. What a relief to know you finally got it. Whew!

[Mongo]

That is as simple as I can make it.

This should be interesting, where have I ignored anything negative about any product? Where have I denied anything? Please use the quote function. Every single product I own bar none has some negatives to it. The choice I make in any purchase is do the positives outweigh the negatives given my current wants/needs. That's all there is to it really. Feeling the positive attributes outweigh the negative attributes of anything is not the same as ignoring them.

Should be good for another 15 paragraphs repeating the same shit.

[Mongo]

Then we agree you are lacking. What a relief to know you finally got it. Whew!

Are you this bad in a face to face conversation or is it the whole threaded conversations between different people that is confusing you?

[SquireSCA]

Then we agree you are lacking. What a relief to know you finally got it. Whew!

it only took you 2 days to conclude that Mongo is a douche. You are doing better than most in all honesty. We try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he will argue that the earth is flat if given a chance.

[jkhonea]

but he will argue that the earth is flat if given a chance.

Pot, meet kettle.

[TwistyDiva]

Are you this bad in a face to face conversation or is it the whole threaded conversations between different people that is confusing you?

Yeah it made about as much sense as the dribble you've posted throughout this thread but sometime you just have to show someone how retarded they are. I am sorry I didn't have any pictures but you get my point.

[SquireSCA]

Pot, meet kettle.

The difference is that I will post why I think the earth is round and provide lots of facts, data and links to support it.

Mongo will sit there with his hands over his ears yelling LA LA LA LA LA! and just repeating that he doesn't care about science, numbers or a freakin globe, that the world is flat and anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot... LOL

[jkhonea]

Perception is a wonderful thing.

[Mongo]

Yeah it made about as much sense as the dribble you've posted throughout this thread but sometime you just have to show someone how retarded they are. I am sorry I didn't have any pictures but you get my point.

You've shown yourself to be a dumb customer. You've shown yourself to be pissed off at a company because you were a dumb customer. Other than that you haven't proven anything here sorry. Maybe next discussion it'll be something you won't have to show the problem is with you and you'll make more sense.

[Mongo]

The difference is that I will post why I think the earth is round and provide lots of facts, data and links to support it.

Mongo will sit there with his hands over his ears yelling LA LA LA LA LA! and just repeating that he doesn't care about science, numbers or a freakin globe, that the world is flat and anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot... LOL

Still waiting for you to find that post where I argued against a single fact.

[SquireSCA]

Perception is a wonderful thing.

Indeed, but you are free to use the search function or scroll through any number of threads, and you will see me citing specific examples, numbers, sales figures, market penetration numbers, reviews, news articles and things like that in the majority of these little pissing matches.

Mongo, brings his opinions and that's that.

Perception is always a factor, but some of us at least make an attempt at backing them up with something tangible...

[SquireSCA]

Still waiting for you to find that post where I argued against a single fact.

Done it too many times over the years. I will take the time, go repost everything, and you will ignore it or charge back into the semantics game and I will have just wasted yet more time, which is your goal.

If I feel the urge, I will post up a couple. BUt we both know how this game is played, as we have done it many times before.

[Mongo]

Indeed, but you are free to use the search function or scroll through any number of threads, and you will see me citing specific examples, numbers, sales figures, market penetration numbers, reviews, news articles and things like that in the majority of these little pissing matches.

Mongo, brings his opinions and that's that.

Perception is always a factor, but some of us at least make an attempt at backing them up with something tangible...

Come on snookums, use that search function, find where I'm arguing about the facts. You've been saying that lie for how many posts and pages now - you should have some of your facts figures sites to back it up by now...

[TwistyDiva]

You've shown yourself to be a dumb customer. You've shown yourself to be pissed off at a company because you were a dumb customer. Other than that you haven't proven anything here sorry. Maybe next discussion it'll be something you won't have to show the problem is with you and you'll make more sense.

Sticks and Stones Mongo.... ;)

[SquireSCA]

You now have some sort of right to access the entire internet? Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!


Come on snookums, use that search function, find where I'm arguing about the facts. You've been saying that lie for how many posts and pages now - you should have some of your facts figures sites to back it up by now...

You don't argue facts, you ignore them and make the argument into one of semantics because that is the only place you feel that you even have a chance of winning.

You say things like Flash is only imporant to ME, yet when figures are posted showing just how entrenched it is across the web, you ignore it.

Your arguments are never about anything head on, they are nothing more than constant deflections, personal attackes and semantics, because the real topic is something that you don't really have the insight or understanding to debate.

eg. Someone says that not having Flash prevents you from doing X,Y and Z. To which your response is, "So Apple forced you to buy that product?" Deflection, incorrect and irrelevant. Whether the person bought the product or not, it is still a factual statement that having an iPhone prevents you from doing X, Y and Z. You will keep tryingt to argue whether the person should have bought the iPhone and keep ignoring the fact that whether they did or didn't, HAVING AN IPHONE PREVENTS YOU FROM DOING X, Y and Z.

It's a valid, factual criticism, and acknowledgement of a well-documented limitation. Wether or not I choose to let it impact me is besides the point. It still exists.

Same thing for the intentional crippling of the devices in other areas being primarily to limit content so that you have to purchase it from them. Your response is, "Then don't buy it". But nobody is saying where I should buy it or not, and whether I do or not doesn't change the fact that they limit access to content so that they can charge you for it.

Is this stuff really so hard to keep up with? I mean really, I know that you are bored, but it strikes me that someone that cannot follow simple concepts and keep on track with the actual topic, is probably someone that cannot dress themselves in the morning, let alone run an organization...

[RogueElement]

I think this sums up the last 20 pages:

http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/24/lolcatsdotcomvpvo45lw3m530p50.jpg

[Mongo]

Sticks and Stones Mongo.... ;)

Oh I'm sorry, since you started the direct personal insults I thought you were okay with those. My apologies if it's only okay for you to give and not receive.

[Mongo]

You don't argue facts, you ignore them and make the argument into one of semantics because that is the only place you feel that you even have a chance of winning.

Is this stuff really so hard to keep up with? I mean really, I know that you are bored, but it strikes me that someone that cannot follow simple concepts and keep on track with the actual topic, is probably someone that cannot dress themselves in the morning, let alone run an organization...

Still waiting for one single instance of me ignoring facts. Just one little tiny one.

I'm not really all that bored, doesn't take much effort to read your drivel and respond. So far I've done that as well as create free passes to give out for the GNF, proofed a number of things, set up computers for Nelson and Nashville, answered emails, surfed my BBS, dressed myself, took a leak and even remembered to zip up after! Oh hell, did I wash my hands? Eh, no worries, dick is clean and I didn't pee on myself.

[TroyBoy30]

Those 2 need a droid Ducati

[Georgiacbr]

Those 2 need a droid Ducati

LOL:sleep:

[Ringo®]

23 going once?

[RogueElement]

Those 2 need a droid Ducati

I'd be on top of that in a heartbeat. :lol:

[TroyBoy30]

You'd be on top of anything that would let you in a heart beat, including Dave

[RogueElement]

You'd be on top of anything that would let you in a heart beat, including Dave

Dave's head is far too shiny for my liking.

[Mongo]

Word?







:rofl:

[Ringo®]

Sold to the Boneyard at 24 pages!