Rattling/whirring noise on R1 with knocking on acceleration

[TarzanMan]

This is a new problem, so I started a new thread (though it might be related to the starter motor problem I fixed (http://www.georgiasportbike.com/showthread.php?9355-(Self-inflicted)-problems-with-2004-R1-and-starter-motor.) with a new starter motor).

I tried to ride the bike earlier this morning but I noticed that the engine ran rough... almost as if some cylinders aren't firing (sounded like a twin when I open the throttle).

Also, I felt the bike/engine knocking as I pulled off from a stop and accelerated and there is a scraping/whirring metallic sound that wasn't there before

Here is a video from a few minutes ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhyrQ7uypwo


• I checked the electrical plugs going to the throttle body assembly, and everything is plugged in properly

• I checked the spark plugs and and coils and they are all firing

• I checked the throttle bodies and the pressures are all reasonably close



I have *no* idea what could be causing this. Any ideas?

[Todd]

may be a dumb question, but was it doing this prior to your starter debacle?

[Over TWO Customs]

spray the headers with water while the bike is running, verify that all 4 cylinders are indeed HOT.

[TarzanMan]

may be a dumb question, but was it doing this prior to your starter debacle?
Todd: No, it was not doing this at all.


spray the headers with water while the bike is running, verify that all 4 cylinders are indeed HOT.
I will do that first thing tomorrow morning. Seeing as how the plugs are sparking, what would cold pipes mean? What would hot pipes mean?

I'm worried that a valve is off kilter or something.

[Over TWO Customs]

just because you see a spark doesnt mean that the cylinder is actually firing correctly. If the bike sounds like a V Twin then it probably is running like one. Odds are 1 or more of the cylinders is not firing. As for the "whirling" noise, I cant make it out on the video. You will need to identify the source area of the noise.

Keep in mind that the starter isnt doing anything in this equation unless you are pushing the starter button or its getting stuck and staying engaged.

[Todd]

Todd: No, it was not doing this at all.

Then i'd just about put money on something is up with the starter or how it bolted up.

[TarzanMan]

just because you see a spark doesnt mean that the cylinder is actually firing correctly.
If the bike sounds like a V Twin then it probably is running like one. Odds are 1 or more of the cylinders is not firing. As for the "whirling" noise, I cant make it out on the video. You will need to identify the source area of the noise.

Keep in mind that the starter isnt doing anything in this equation unless you are pushing the starter button or its getting stuck and staying engaged.
The noise is coming from inside the engine. Somewhere below the throttle bodies is all I can say for sure (I don't have a stethoscope).

How do I tell if the starter is staying engaged?


Then i'd just about put money on something is up with the starter or how it bolted up.

Todd: Is it possible to put the starter in incorrectly? I had a friend say that a misfire could have thrown something off timing or out of alignment (I am paraphrasing)

[TarzanMan]

All cylinders are firing. I did the spray test on the headers (per Over Two's suggestion).
(video showing the headers getting warm upon starting the bike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOGOolPSePk))


QUICK TEST RIDE
I rode the bike around the cul-de-sac once to try to get a better feel for what the engine was doing under load. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFM-lcohvQE

You can definitely tell by the sound that the engine isn't a healthy inline 4.


• The torque/power is off. I am feathering the clutch

• The knocking I feel could also be described as a pulsing of the engine. The rate of the pulse increases with the speed of the egnine (rpm).

• The 'push' of the engine seems comes during the 'pulses', not unlike a twin motorcycle... but weaker? This might just be my mind playing tricks on me, though.

[Todd]

Keep in mind that the starter isnt doing anything in this equation unless you are pushing the starter button or its getting stuck and staying engaged.unless he installed it improperly and something is binding. It should still run properly, but i can see a funny noise if it somehow didnt get lined up properly, or even something electrically with the starting circuit could possibly cause the "running like a twin". 99 times out of 100, if the bike was running fine prior to "whatever the F you did to it", its usually the "whatever the F you did to it" thats causing the problem..............just sayin'.

[Over TWO Customs]

I had a customer call me today who is experiencing a similar problem on an 04 R1. We replaced the stator and rotor in the bike. Its connected to the starter clutch but the bike ran fine for the last 2 weeks. Sometimes things are coincidence, sometimes its something small that you overlooked. The starter on the R1 cant really go in wrong from that end.

[Todd]

im JUST sayin'.

[TarzanMan]

Color me stupid, but why would a stator problem cause the engine to fire improperly? I thought that the stator only recharged the battery?

[willr1]

If it were me, I would take it to someone who works on these for a living before you screw up something more as diagnosing stuff over the internet and having someone look at it will make things go a lot quicker

[SKnight]

If it were me, I would take it to someone who works on these for a living before you screw up something more as diagnosing stuff over the internet and having someone look at it will make things go a lot quickerAbsolutely.

However did you have to take the injectors or even the coils loose to install the starter? Sounds to me like you have two cylinders crossed.

[secondgen7]

However did you have to take the injectors or even the coils loose to install the starter? Sounds to me like you have two cylinders crossed.

+1. That most recent video absolutely looks/sounds like it's not running/firing (properly) on all 4.

[TarzanMan]

I removed the entire throttle body assembly to install the starter motor, but the entire assembly was moved as a unit (no disassembling the fuel rail or messing with the injectors at all).

I did check the vacuum pressure on the throttle bodies with a carbtune II (at idle) and they were pretty close.

I checked all the coils and the spark plugs (they spark). I posted a video showing that all the headers were hot with the bike running, so indicators suggest that they are firing.

[SKnight]

Just cause they're hot doesn't mean they're firing correctly. Everything we can do over the net is a SWAG. What I was hitting at is if you crossed the electrical connectors for 2-3 then it'll fire but have zero power from those holes. Given that it ran fine before the starter but is buggered after means something isn't reassembled correctly. The starter could be hanging but I doubt it cause it's running awful, the starter would just drag it down, not act like it's crossfiring.

As I said it sounds like time to take it in.

[Todd]

As I said it sounds like time to take it in.
:stupid:
Dont wait till youve done something like you did with your friends countershaft and sprocket. :lol:

[TarzanMan]

:stupid:
Dont wait till youve done something like you did with your friends countershaft and sprocket. :lol:
That bike got stolen before the front sprocket got worn out :-(

I warned my friend about keeping it at an apartment complex, but he thought it would be ok.

In other news:
I opened up the stator to check the stator and the bearing (per a suggestion).

I am not an expert, but everything seemed to be in proper order

http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8192.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8192.jpg)http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8193.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8193.jpg)
http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8194.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8194.jpg)http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8200.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8200.jpg)http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/P9190198.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9190198.jpg)

I'm out of ideas.

Looks like I am going to have to find a way to get this bike to the shop.

[cpark_12]

have you pulled the plugs and checked them? i had a bike jump timing and it completely screwed that cylinder up. the valve stayed open too long and the piston hit it and broke it. then the valve stuck into the top of the piston and hit the spark plug and broke it also. just saying, if you haven't pulled the plugs, i would just to check them out. definitely sounds like its a timing problem though...

[SKnight]

I admire your tenacity but if you would apply a little diagnostic strategy you would see that you're shotgunning instead of diagnosing. You didn't touch the stator to install the starter, thus it's a near impossibility that something in there is wrong. However you did pull the electrical top end off plus the throttle bodies so I'll go a dollar that's where your problem lies either electrically or even a vacuum leak. There could be a ground loose for that matter.

Go back and review every single thing you touched.

[TarzanMan]

I've been back inside the bike under the fuel tank. If I missed something while putting it back together then I am too forgetful to remember what it was and too stupid to figure it out.

Just going by memory:

Gas tank
• 2 electrical connectors (one white, one green)
• Fuel line (with plastic guard)
• fuel reserve (or overflow?) line
• Air(?) line
• 4 hex socket bolts (front, sides, rear) holding tank.

Air box (top half)
• 9 philip's-head screws attaching it to bottom half
• Temperarature sensor connector (light green)

Air box (bottom half)
• Air filter
• rubber hose on left side (dunno what it goes to)
• rubber hose towards rear of bike (dunno what it goes to)
• Two pairs of plastic velocity stacks with 3 hex socket bolts each

Throttle body assembly (which I took the electrical connectors off of the first time, but then realized that I could leave them plugged in and still get access to the starter motor)
• 4 electrical connectors for injector (white)
• Connector for fuel rail (black)
• Connector for throttle position sensor (black)
• connector going down through heat shield (dark green)
• connector going around left side of bike (black, dunno what it does)
• 4 screws around rubber boots holding the assembly onto the top of the engine (metric size 4 allen socket)
• 2 ends of throttle cable(s)

Remove heat shield and you have access to the starter motor. One electrical lead, motor is grounded by and held in by two metric size 8 hex head bolts.
---

I can't see anything else loose in there and most of the electrical connectors only reach to their designated connectors. I am not saying that I didn't cause my problem, but I don't think that a loose or disconnected coupler is my problem

[TarzanMan]

have you pulled the plugs and checked them? i had a bike jump timing and it completely screwed that cylinder up. the valve stayed open too long and the piston hit it and broke it. then the valve stuck into the top of the piston and hit the spark plug and broke it also. just saying, if you haven't pulled the plugs, i would just to check them out. definitely sounds like its a timing problem though...

Yes, I did. (http://www.georgiasportbike.com/showthread.php?9448-Rattling-whirring-noise-on-R1-with-knocking-on-acceleration&p=132453&viewfull=1#post132453) Coils and plugs seemed to check out ok. The spark plugs themselves were replaced about 3 weeks ago (NGK CR9EIX)

[cpark_12]

Can you get a pic of the Throttle bodies and all the wires and hoses?

Swyped via Tapatalk

[TarzanMan]

I won't be able to get everything at once because at least 2 of the connectors (dark green and the one around the left) are on opposite sides of the assembly.

I will take the photo later today. It might be a moot point, though.... I have already decided to bring the bike to a shop. My main problem right now is finding a way to get it there.

[SKnight]

Call, some shops can come get it.

[cpark_12]

I will take the photo later today. It might be a moot point, though.... I have already decided to bring the bike to a shop. My main problem right now is finding a way to get it there.

This is true...


Swyped via Tapatalk

[The Lazy Destroyer]

Will a large vacuum leak cause a partial misfire on a FI bike? That's the only thing that popped in my head when he said he pulled the TB off... maybe a intake boot is not attached properly? I assume there are no FI codes being thrown? Maybe a pinched fuel line? I'd definitely retrace your steps as best you can.

[secondgen7]

I assume there are no FI codes being thrown?

Good call ... even if the CEL isn't being triggered, I would expect some codes to be thrown on a bike running this poorly.

[The Lazy Destroyer]

The noise is coming from inside the engine. Somewhere below the throttle bodies is all I can say for sure (I don't have a stethoscope).


In a pinch you can use a large long screwdriver. Place the tip end against various spots around the engine and place your ear on the end of the handle. I do this all the time when I need to troubleshoot where a problem is in a large flowmeter at work, and it works surprisingly well considering how redneck it looks. Otherwise you should be able to find a mechanics steth at any auto parts or tool store.

You can also use this trick to check the injectors to verify if they are firing, with the screwdriver against the injectors you should hear a distinct "click" with every squirt.

I used a screwdriver to locate the exact cylinder of a collapsed lifter on my old Olds V6, and a failed rocker arm on a Chevy V8, both times without taking anything apart.

[cpark_12]

Will a large vacuum leak cause a partial misfire on a FI bike? That's the only thing that popped in my head when he said he pulled the TB off... maybe a intake boot is not attached properly? I assume there are no FI codes being thrown? Maybe a pinched fuel line? I'd definitely retrace your steps as best you can.

Normally, vacuum leaks cause a high or erratic idle, but a big enough one will cause it to run like pure crap.

Swyped via Tapatalk

[SKnight]

Will a large vacuum leak cause a partial misfire on a FI bike? That's the only thing that popped in my head when he said he pulled the TB off... maybe a intake boot is not attached properly? I assume there are no FI codes being thrown? Maybe a pinched fuel line? I'd definitely retrace your steps as best you can.Absolutely. The computer is only going to fire the injector so much for a given RPM.

[TarzanMan]

Would a vacuum leak not exhibit symptoms on a throttle body sync tool? The leaking cylinder would show up as noticeably lower than the other cylinders, correct? I did not rev the throttle when i hooked up the carbtune II this weekend. I will do so later today (I will shoot some more video, i guess)

[TarzanMan]

Well, I heard back from the dealership. I must give proper respects to bikehealer1 (http://blokessportbike.com/member.php?u=4231) (on BSB) who made a correct diagnosis solely based on my description of the symptoms.

The bearing(s) inside the stator cover are bad, and unfortunately it seems that one of them started to disintegrate after the tech started the motor (this is after I left the bike with them). The tech suspects that pieces might have gotten into the bottom of the engine.

I haven't seen what the bearing looks like, but it looks like my choices are to replace the bearing and hope that the pieces don't cause any trouble (which would mean checking the oil filter and strainer regularly, I am guessing) or:
1. have them inspect the bottom of the engine?
2. possibly replace engine?

[cpark_12]

That bike got stolen before the front sprocket got worn out :-(

I warned my friend about keeping it at an apartment complex, but he thought it would be ok.

In other news:
I opened up the stator to check the stator and the bearing (per a suggestion).

I am not an expert, but everything seemed to be in proper order

http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8192.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8192.jpg)http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8193.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8193.jpg)
http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8194.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8194.jpg)http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/IMG_8200.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/IMG_8200.jpg)http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/thumbs/P9190198.jpg (http://riftwave.net/misc/2004R1/P9190198.jpg)

I'm out of ideas.

Looks like I am going to have to find a way to get this bike to the shop.

They taking about the bearing in the last pic you posted here?

Swyped via Tapatalk

[TarzanMan]

There are two bearings that hold the stator+rotor. The one I have pictured, and another that is hidden under the stator.

As near as the tech can tell, one of them may have been going bad already, but my putting the stator/rotor cluster back together incorrectly (when I took these pictures) is probably what finally caused failure of the bearing in the last photo when he ran the bike. He was nice enough to bring me back into the shop and explain his findings to me as he showed me the bike. There were gold colored metal shavings visible inside the stator cover and the bearing was visibly worn/damaged.

I am ordering some parts from Anaheim on Monday. I will have the dealership replace the bearings (since I do not have the tools to pull a bearing out myself), but I will then take the bike home (on a truck) to remove the exhaust and drop the oil pan myself to clean the pan and the strainer of any shavings that I might find.

Weekly oil changes for a month or so probably wouldn't be a bad idea either

[TarzanMan]

The dealership couldn't figure out what the problem was, so I brought bike to a different (non-dealership) shop. I got a phone call later that day from a mechanic telling me what the problem was.

Some of the springs had apparently worked their way free of the throttle bodies. As a result, the blades on some of the cylinders were not opening and closing in unison with the others.

The mystery for me is how in the world the springs got loose. At no time did I disassemble any part of the throttle bodies.

Ah well. Problem solved. Wallet much lighter. Time to ride to the supermarket to buy Kleenex so that I can have a good cry about the money I have spent. :crying:

[SpecV]

glad you got her fixed !!!